Folding Text 2.1 out -- now abandoned by Hog Bay
Started by Stephen Zeoli
on 10/13/2015
Stephen Zeoli
10/13/2015 6:52 pm
Wow, this is so typical of Jesse Grosjean of Hog Bay Software.
If you are a Folding Text user, you probably got the e-mail announcement about version 2.1. Though it has been a while (maybe two years) since the last update, it was encouraging to see continued development (as was promised in the initial release). Then you get to the last paragraph of the e-mail announcement:
"Going forward Mutahhir Ali, who also worked with me to create FoldingText, will maintain FoldingText. Mutahhir will focus on bug fixes and keeping FoldingText working into the future."
In other words, Hog Bay is washing its hands of the app, and the best we who have invested in the app can expect are bug fixes and OS adjustments. Okay, so that's better than nothing. But when Folding Text was released, Jesse touted it as his replacement for TaskPaper, which was his replacement for Mori, as he searched for the perfect app. I've said it before, Jesse is a gifted developer, but buyer beware. He takes his apps to a certain point then apparently loses interest and moves on to his next genius idea.
The promise with FT was that there would be a lot of modes added to make it even more flexible and useful. That promise has not been fulfilled. FT works fine, but it continues to have rough edges and feels like an incomplete project to me. I'd welcome contrary views.
Steve Z.
If you are a Folding Text user, you probably got the e-mail announcement about version 2.1. Though it has been a while (maybe two years) since the last update, it was encouraging to see continued development (as was promised in the initial release). Then you get to the last paragraph of the e-mail announcement:
"Going forward Mutahhir Ali, who also worked with me to create FoldingText, will maintain FoldingText. Mutahhir will focus on bug fixes and keeping FoldingText working into the future."
In other words, Hog Bay is washing its hands of the app, and the best we who have invested in the app can expect are bug fixes and OS adjustments. Okay, so that's better than nothing. But when Folding Text was released, Jesse touted it as his replacement for TaskPaper, which was his replacement for Mori, as he searched for the perfect app. I've said it before, Jesse is a gifted developer, but buyer beware. He takes his apps to a certain point then apparently loses interest and moves on to his next genius idea.
The promise with FT was that there would be a lot of modes added to make it even more flexible and useful. That promise has not been fulfilled. FT works fine, but it continues to have rough edges and feels like an incomplete project to me. I'd welcome contrary views.
Steve Z.
Paul Korm
10/13/2015 7:29 pm
Folding Text always seemed like a one-man skunk works effort. I was shocked to see that there was an update in the App Store today -- I had given up FT for dead years ago.
The blurb in the App Store mentions nothing about the support changes Steve reported -- though the App Store isn't the likely place to learn about that. It's interesting that the App Store is still selling FT for $29.99. That's a hefty price for software that's officially on the edge of its demise.
I don't feel bad about about a small team or one-man show giving up on their product, or making big promises then backing down from them. It's got to be a long, tiresome slog supporting these apps after 3 or 5 or 10 years or more. So, if they want to go off and do something else, then do something else. I'm fickle about what software I use from year to year, so they can be fickle about what they make from year to year. It's not like our safety relies on this stuff -- it's just software ;-)
The blurb in the App Store mentions nothing about the support changes Steve reported -- though the App Store isn't the likely place to learn about that. It's interesting that the App Store is still selling FT for $29.99. That's a hefty price for software that's officially on the edge of its demise.
I don't feel bad about about a small team or one-man show giving up on their product, or making big promises then backing down from them. It's got to be a long, tiresome slog supporting these apps after 3 or 5 or 10 years or more. So, if they want to go off and do something else, then do something else. I'm fickle about what software I use from year to year, so they can be fickle about what they make from year to year. It's not like our safety relies on this stuff -- it's just software ;-)
Franz Grieser
10/13/2015 7:39 pm
Paul: Yes.
AND when it comes to long-term availability of the data stored I prefer going with someone who sticks to what he developed (Tinderbox, Curio, Scrivener...) and not with someone who is known for leaving his products behind every 2 or 3 years.
AND when it comes to long-term availability of the data stored I prefer going with someone who sticks to what he developed (Tinderbox, Curio, Scrivener...) and not with someone who is known for leaving his products behind every 2 or 3 years.
jaslar
10/14/2015 12:57 am
Well, I'm sorry to see that. I think Steve Z is right: Hog Bay now has a solid rep for producing genius products that lose steam.
On the other hand, the TaskPaper format really is brilliant. And although I've given up on other versions (Taskmator?), I like the implementation in Editorial very much: TaskPaper format, markdown, plaintext. So good ideas (mostly) live on, and get incorporated in some fashion or another into our tool chests.
On the third hand, I haven't spent a lot of money on Hog Bay software, so don't feel quite the sense of (justified) betrayal others may feel.
On the other hand, the TaskPaper format really is brilliant. And although I've given up on other versions (Taskmator?), I like the implementation in Editorial very much: TaskPaper format, markdown, plaintext. So good ideas (mostly) live on, and get incorporated in some fashion or another into our tool chests.
On the third hand, I haven't spent a lot of money on Hog Bay software, so don't feel quite the sense of (justified) betrayal others may feel.
Prion
10/14/2015 1:14 pm
Yes, but it was hardly Taskpaper that invented the on-the-fly mark-up-ified display of plain text material.
Org mode came before that and is a *lot* more powerful, too, but there may have been programs doing similar things even before that.
jaslar wrote:
Org mode came before that and is a *lot* more powerful, too, but there may have been programs doing similar things even before that.
jaslar wrote:
.... I like the
implementation in Editorial very much: TaskPaper format, markdown,
plaintext. So good ideas (mostly) live on, and get incorporated in some
fashion or another into our tool chests.
Andy Brice
10/14/2015 1:26 pm
Perhaps, as an Indie software product developer I can give a slightly different perspective.
I have released 3 software products in the last 10.5 years.
http://www.perfecttableplan.com/
Still going strong after >10 years.
http://www.hyperplan.com
Less than a year old and showing promise. I have been putting out a steady stream of releases.
http://www.keywordfunnel.com
Nobody cared. Abandoned after a few months and now completely free (and still no-one cares!).
If a product isn't paying the bills, you have to move on. BUT you should never make promises you might not be able to keep. I never makes promises about release dates or future features (except on those rare occasions when someone pays to have a feature implemented).
Andy Brice
I have released 3 software products in the last 10.5 years.
http://www.perfecttableplan.com/
Still going strong after >10 years.
http://www.hyperplan.com
Less than a year old and showing promise. I have been putting out a steady stream of releases.
http://www.keywordfunnel.com
Nobody cared. Abandoned after a few months and now completely free (and still no-one cares!).
If a product isn't paying the bills, you have to move on. BUT you should never make promises you might not be able to keep. I never makes promises about release dates or future features (except on those rare occasions when someone pays to have a feature implemented).
Andy Brice
MadaboutDana
10/14/2015 3:12 pm
I think you've pinpointed the difference, Andy. Making promises and then losing interest in your own product is especially galling.
Let's face it, there's always been considerable interest in TaskPaper, and indeed in FoldingText. So I'm not sure the making money side of the equation was the real issue; I think it more likely that, as others suggest, the developer simply lost interest.
There's huge potential for further progress in the text markup market, so quite why the Great Man decided to leave it all behind is anyone's guess. As someone who owns all his products, I do find it rather annoying.
But thanks for your realistic perspective!
Cheers,
Bill (a HyperPlan user)
Let's face it, there's always been considerable interest in TaskPaper, and indeed in FoldingText. So I'm not sure the making money side of the equation was the real issue; I think it more likely that, as others suggest, the developer simply lost interest.
There's huge potential for further progress in the text markup market, so quite why the Great Man decided to leave it all behind is anyone's guess. As someone who owns all his products, I do find it rather annoying.
But thanks for your realistic perspective!
Cheers,
Bill (a HyperPlan user)
Andy Brice
10/14/2015 5:08 pm
MadaboutDana wrote:
I don't know anything about this specific case. But if someone made specific promises and then didn't keep them, that's obviously not good.
Stephen Zeoli wrote:
Paul Korm wrote:
Maybe the fact that these various folding apps have gone defunct means there isn't that much money in them? You have to make a lot of $29.99 sales per week to make something comparable to what a skilled developer can make as a salaried employee. Especially when Apple take a larcenous 30% cut and doesn't let you charge for upgrades. And many people consider $29.99 outrageously expensive in the app store. (Thanks for nothing Apple!)
Productivity apps is a very competitive area. I can only afford to work on Hyper Plan because of the income from my PerfectTablePlan product. Hopefully Hyper Plan will be as successful as PerfectTablePlan one day. But that could take a long time.
That is possible. Many developers suffer from 'new shiny thing' syndrome. But if he was making lots of money from it, he probably wouldn't have lost interest!
Andy Brice
I think you've pinpointed the difference, Andy. Making promises and then
losing interest in your own product is especially galling.
I don't know anything about this specific case. But if someone made specific promises and then didn't keep them, that's obviously not good.
Let's face it, there's always been considerable interest in TaskPaper,
and indeed in FoldingText. So I'm not sure the making money side of the
equation was the real issue;
Stephen Zeoli wrote:
But when Folding Text was released, Jesse touted it as his replacement for TaskPaper, which was his replacement for Mori, as he searched for the perfect app.
Paul Korm wrote:
It’s interesting that the App Store is still selling FT for $29.99. That’s a hefty price for software that’s officially on the edge of its demise.
Maybe the fact that these various folding apps have gone defunct means there isn't that much money in them? You have to make a lot of $29.99 sales per week to make something comparable to what a skilled developer can make as a salaried employee. Especially when Apple take a larcenous 30% cut and doesn't let you charge for upgrades. And many people consider $29.99 outrageously expensive in the app store. (Thanks for nothing Apple!)
Productivity apps is a very competitive area. I can only afford to work on Hyper Plan because of the income from my PerfectTablePlan product. Hopefully Hyper Plan will be as successful as PerfectTablePlan one day. But that could take a long time.
I think it more likely that, as others
suggest, the developer simply lost interest.
That is possible. Many developers suffer from 'new shiny thing' syndrome. But if he was making lots of money from it, he probably wouldn't have lost interest!
Andy Brice
Hugh
10/15/2015 9:58 am
I share the dismay about Folding Text, and other prematurely-euthanased, or at least sold-on, applications.
At the same time, I try hard to follow the Blountian advice, quoted here previously: "Buy software for what it is, not what you hope it will become." The trouble is, there are often persuasive reasons for ignoring that guidance.
Sometimes, as with Folding Text, there've been real hints or promises of good things still to come. As a consumer, you at least hope that the software will be updated to cope fully with, or even exploit properly, future upgrades in your operating system. And despite what Keith Blount says, you may also believe, perhaps unwisely, that you're investing in something a little bit bigger than the bytes you download. An unarticulated commitment to the development of additional and better functionality that only the original developer is likely to have the imagination, knowledge and energy to pursue? A promise of something that will make your life as a user slightly easier or more fun at some point in the future? If we as consumers tend to think in those ways, are we foolish?
At the same time, I try hard to follow the Blountian advice, quoted here previously: "Buy software for what it is, not what you hope it will become." The trouble is, there are often persuasive reasons for ignoring that guidance.
Sometimes, as with Folding Text, there've been real hints or promises of good things still to come. As a consumer, you at least hope that the software will be updated to cope fully with, or even exploit properly, future upgrades in your operating system. And despite what Keith Blount says, you may also believe, perhaps unwisely, that you're investing in something a little bit bigger than the bytes you download. An unarticulated commitment to the development of additional and better functionality that only the original developer is likely to have the imagination, knowledge and energy to pursue? A promise of something that will make your life as a user slightly easier or more fun at some point in the future? If we as consumers tend to think in those ways, are we foolish?
Stephen Zeoli
10/15/2015 2:59 pm
Tons of sense here from all points of view.
Hog Bay or any other developer certainly has the right to pull the plug on an app whenever they choose. Sometimes, if they've made promises to customers that they end up not living up to, that can be an ethical issue, but that's between them and their conscience.
My experience with Jesse (and he's not the only one -- see Notesuite) makes me more cautious about investing in new software (or should if I didn't suffer from CRIMP). Smart consumers will wait until an app has established a large user base, which improves the odds of continued development. Of course, that mindset will make it harder for new developers to establish a new product in the marketplace.
I want to support the development of new software that intrigues me. But I think I deserve some good faith from the developer if I'm going to do that.
Steve Z.
Hog Bay or any other developer certainly has the right to pull the plug on an app whenever they choose. Sometimes, if they've made promises to customers that they end up not living up to, that can be an ethical issue, but that's between them and their conscience.
My experience with Jesse (and he's not the only one -- see Notesuite) makes me more cautious about investing in new software (or should if I didn't suffer from CRIMP). Smart consumers will wait until an app has established a large user base, which improves the odds of continued development. Of course, that mindset will make it harder for new developers to establish a new product in the marketplace.
I want to support the development of new software that intrigues me. But I think I deserve some good faith from the developer if I'm going to do that.
Steve Z.
Andy Brice
10/15/2015 5:17 pm
Hugh wrote:
Not foolish, but certainly optimistic. ;0)
Products stop being supported all the time for all sorts of reasons.
When people ask me about future features in my product I am happy to talk to them about what is on the 'wishlist'. But I make no promises and tell them to make their purchasing decision on the basis of what it currently does.
Andy Brice
A promise of something that
will make your life as a user slightly easier or more fun at some point
in the future? If we as consumers tend to think in those ways, are we
foolish?
Not foolish, but certainly optimistic. ;0)
Products stop being supported all the time for all sorts of reasons.
When people ask me about future features in my product I am happy to talk to them about what is on the 'wishlist'. But I make no promises and tell them to make their purchasing decision on the basis of what it currently does.
Andy Brice
jaslar
10/15/2015 6:55 pm
I see that Hog Bay's mangomarkdown.com web folding markdown editor site is also down. (Oakoutliner.com is still up, though.) Mangomarkdown was another cool idea that never QUITE a made it to my use-it list. I like markdown, like folding, but need just a few more things: tabs, spellcheck, word count. As Steve said at the beginning, so many brilliant almost solutions from Hog Bay. I too have put money into people who seem to be on the right track. But I suppose we have to be philosophical when it doesn't quite pan out. Not every investment pays off. As a pool shark I once knew told me, even without his fancy cue "I bet I can still find the pockets." CRIMP though we will, we can usually get the job done with the tools at hand.
Prion
10/18/2015 7:55 am
An interesting interview with the creator of Taskpaper, Foldingtext et al but not one that would convince me of a strategy behind the differentiation between the two. You would not believe which one is due for the next update and for which reason....
https://hacked.com/interview-writeroom/
Spoiler: It is Taskpaper
https://hacked.com/interview-writeroom/
Spoiler: It is Taskpaper
Andy Brice
10/19/2015 11:51 am
Prion wrote:
https://hacked.com/interview-writeroom/
I think the key text is:
"[Folding Text] also quite geeky and not easy to sell. Much easier to sell simpler more focused apps like WriteRoom and TaskPaper."
So it seems he wasn't making enough sales to justify further development.
It's impossible to predict how many sales a new product will make before you release it.
Stephen Zeoli
10/19/2015 3:41 pm
It is no doubt true that Folding Text didn't sell well enough to keep Jesse's attention on it, but his next project could very well be even more difficult to make work financially, as many early-adopters may not be so quick to buy into it with his demonstrated track record of jumping ship on his software.
TaskPaper isn't nearly as "geeky" as FT and seems to have a larger following. Instead of continuing to improve TaskPaper, he made the choice to stop working on it and focus on FT, thus, in the end, leaving two user bases high and dry. He also dropped the TaskPaper iOS app. (In fairness, he did make it open source and two developers are now working on forked versions: TaskOnPaper and Taskomator -- the latter just had a new version come out.)
While TaskPaper remains a live app (you can still buy it on the App Store) -- it just hasn't been updated in well over three years and Jesse stated that he was stopping to work on it because it is flawed and he wanted to give FT all the power that TP had and more. Now they both seem abandoned.
I'm not complaining about this -- it is what it is. Lots of big companies hang users out to dry too (e. g. NetManage with EccoPro). I'm just suggesting that it is not a good way to make a software business viable.
Steve Z.
Andy Brice wrote:
TaskPaper isn't nearly as "geeky" as FT and seems to have a larger following. Instead of continuing to improve TaskPaper, he made the choice to stop working on it and focus on FT, thus, in the end, leaving two user bases high and dry. He also dropped the TaskPaper iOS app. (In fairness, he did make it open source and two developers are now working on forked versions: TaskOnPaper and Taskomator -- the latter just had a new version come out.)
While TaskPaper remains a live app (you can still buy it on the App Store) -- it just hasn't been updated in well over three years and Jesse stated that he was stopping to work on it because it is flawed and he wanted to give FT all the power that TP had and more. Now they both seem abandoned.
I'm not complaining about this -- it is what it is. Lots of big companies hang users out to dry too (e. g. NetManage with EccoPro). I'm just suggesting that it is not a good way to make a software business viable.
Steve Z.
Andy Brice wrote:
Prion wrote:
>https://hacked.com/interview-writeroom/
I think the key text is:
"[Folding Text] also quite geeky and not easy to sell. Much easier to
sell simpler more focused apps like WriteRoom and TaskPaper."
So it seems he wasn't making enough sales to justify further
development.
It's impossible to predict how many sales a new product will make before
you release it.
Brad91
10/19/2015 4:02 pm
Don't worry about losing Folding Text.
Just download an Emacs Starter Kit, say Steve Purcell's, from
Ergo Emacs and start using Org-mode. It's free, much more
powerful than Folding Text and still being developed.
Brad91
Just download an Emacs Starter Kit, say Steve Purcell's, from
Ergo Emacs and start using Org-mode. It's free, much more
powerful than Folding Text and still being developed.
Brad91
MadaboutDana
10/19/2015 4:34 pm
TaskMator, the iOS version of TaskPaper, is turning into a very nice app, so I was pleased to hear ole' Jesse's thinking of saddling up TP again. I was going to contact the TaskMator team about their thoughts on a desktop app in any case.
Having said which, TP still runs well on MacOS, even on El Capitan.
Having said which, TP still runs well on MacOS, even on El Capitan.
Dr Andus
10/19/2015 5:11 pm
Brad91 wrote:
I'm not a Mac or Folding Text user, but I looked at their video out of curiosity, and much of it looks like could be emulated with SmartDown or Gingko.
Don't worry about losing Folding Text.
Just download an Emacs Starter Kit, say Steve Purcell's, from
Ergo Emacs and start using Org-mode. It's free, much more
powerful than Folding Text and still being developed.
I'm not a Mac or Folding Text user, but I looked at their video out of curiosity, and much of it looks like could be emulated with SmartDown or Gingko.
zoe
10/19/2015 6:08 pm
Brad91 wrote:
Don't worry about losing Folding Text.
Just download an Emacs Starter Kit, say Steve Purcell's, from
Ergo Emacs and start using Org-mode. It's free, much more
powerful than Folding Text and still being developed.
Yep. I'm STILL finding out new functionality in org-mode, several months on. It's like some kind of weird TARDIS or something out of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy -- simple in appearance (because it runs in a text editor), but seemingly infinite in what it can be made to do.
It's also very nice to work with something that is 100% free/libre software, developed and maintained by a community as opposed to a single person or, worse yet, a company that hopes to "monetize" somehow.
Mick S
10/20/2015 2:09 am
Nice to see org-mode getting some attention around here. It is indeed almost bottomless in terms of ability and functionality, which is probably why some people think of it more in terms of an operating system than a simple text editor.
Some time back I attempted to wean myself away from my org-mode habit. I lasted about a year before I caved in and returned to the fold. I tried everything on the market but in the end I just couldn't manage without it. If I were sent to a desert island where I was allowed only one piece of software, Emacs with org-mode would be my choice.
I accept that many people do find it daunting and impenetrable, no doubt in part as a result of the staggering facility it provides. You may meet half a dozen org-mode users, all of whom use it in such different ways that it seems they are using totally different software. The trick is to work out in advance just what you want the software to do then go back and figure out how to make it accomplish what you want, ignoring the stuff you don't need. I'd encourage everyone to take a good look at it. It may not be anything you need but then again you might just find exactly what you're after.
Some time back I attempted to wean myself away from my org-mode habit. I lasted about a year before I caved in and returned to the fold. I tried everything on the market but in the end I just couldn't manage without it. If I were sent to a desert island where I was allowed only one piece of software, Emacs with org-mode would be my choice.
I accept that many people do find it daunting and impenetrable, no doubt in part as a result of the staggering facility it provides. You may meet half a dozen org-mode users, all of whom use it in such different ways that it seems they are using totally different software. The trick is to work out in advance just what you want the software to do then go back and figure out how to make it accomplish what you want, ignoring the stuff you don't need. I'd encourage everyone to take a good look at it. It may not be anything you need but then again you might just find exactly what you're after.