I logged into both Asana and Todoist this weekend and was greeted with links to blog posts about their new updates. Often times, these companies release minor updates with little to no notice, and they do so as bugs are usually addressed. So, when they announced their new updates in blog posts, I assumed that there were major changes, especially for Todoist as they do not blog nearly as much as the folks at Asana. After reading the announcements and looking at the programs, all I can say is that I am very underwhelmed. Todoist claims they spent a year on this update, and the major "improvements" are a new logo, new fonts, and new check boxes that are now circular like radio buttons.

It took a year to accomplish this, really? I somewhat understand the need to keep products fresh to attract new users, but it seems like many of the larger web-based software companies are obsessed with window dressing features and changes these days. I would really like to know their game plan, because they certainly are catching flack in their blog post comment sections from paying users. I cannot count the number of users who took them to task for violating basic UI standards by turning check boxes into circles that resemble radio buttons. Is this the best that we can expect from companies like this? It seems like fashion and form have completely trumped function in the world of web-based software. Todoist has upgraded its logo every four years and is now on its third iteration, but they still have key features missing from their software that have been requested for years. Am I just "old school" and being unreasonable to think that providing customers with a good product is the driver to success, or am I just not understanding how to succeed in the world of web-based software today?

--Ken

While I was disappointed that some long standing requests were not implemented in Todoist, I think there were some significant updates in the web/desktop/chrome version, if not on iOS. Namely: quick search is great and a major usibility improvement. Improved natural language engine. And the ability to enter notes while creating a new task.

With so many platforms supported, Todoist has to be very conservative about making any changes. These three things all make the app significantly better and will hopefully soon be ported to iOS as well.

I still wish they'd implement start dates, but I'm happy with this update.

Have to say, I agree that the new version of Todoist is a huge improvement, above all because it's faster and more consistent across platforms.

It now has proper folding in its Mac and iOS incarnations (a long-missing feature), and is much more responsive both as a desktop app and online.

Personally, I like the hugely simplified interface, too. In fact, I'm currently reevaluating it, having sacked it as my main task manager a couple of years ago.

Good things about Todoist: the nested hierarchical view (if you click on a folder, you can see the full hierarchy of child folders and their contents in the view/editor screen).

Bad things: that only works for the desktop/online versions; in the iOS version, you have to be in a specific folder before you can view its contents. But it's not a big deal.

Thank you for pointing out some actual changes worthy of an update (that seemed somewhat buried in their announcements). I will take another look at Todoist to see if I can notice these changes/improvements as they were not really observed on first glance after the announcement. Perhaps some of these changes are not in my normal work flow, like natural language, since I am just not a fan of programs guessing my intentions when I enter words.

Regarding Asana, they keep tinkering with their layout, and I applaud them for attempting to improve the product, but they just do not seem to understand where to clean up the clutter parts of their UI. Seasoned users have pointed out these issues to them over and over, but again, it just seems like their agenda is being driven by other needs. Thankfully, neither has been screwed up over the years, but the potential for a better program seems so close that it seems frustrating when it appears that they spend so much time on logos and colors.

--Ken

I'd entirely agree with that. If a bunch of users have highlighted shortcomings, it's clearly in the developer's interests to improve them.

And I have a similarly suspicious view of natural language. Todoist's latest incarnation does, then doesn't, handle it, which is irritating. But at least it now has a simple drop-down box/calendar thingy that makes it easy to set dates and times without recourse to natural language.

Although no other task management app has achieved the elegant ease of use of TickTick. I only have two criticisms of the latter: that you can't enter notes in rich text (sometimes essential to highlight specific issues), and that the iOS versions make no distinction between the main title of a task and the notes you enter about it (at least the desktop/online versions separate the two by a faint line). But otherwise, TickTick remains an exemplary task management app, with a huge pane for notes (something many other apps could learn from: lots of notes is actually more useful than lots of subtasks).

However, Todoist is quite cool, and I won't pretend I'm not mildly impressed.

Cheers,
Bill

It's worth mentioning to those who don't know that Todoist does support some fairly rudimentary rich-text formatting, using markup code (not sure where it comes from, but it works okay both in task names and in comments. Oh, and a simple kludge allows you to turn a subtask into a note, too: simply prefix the task name with an asterisk, and the checkbox is removed).

The basic markup is: two exclamation marks on either side of word/phrase to be emboldened (or simply use Ctrl+B); two underlines on either side of word/phrase to be italicised (or use Ctrl+I).

And that, apart from a shortcode for setting priorities, is all of it!

Oops, no it's not, you can also enter a URL and then put a name after it in brackets, e.g.:

www.google.com (Google)

and all you'll see in the text is the name, not the URL (the name acts as the link). That's quite cool, too. Full instructions at:

https://todoist.com/Help/TextFormatting?lang=

Two follow-up items, Bill. first, does TickTick support subtasks? And second, turning a task into a note with an asterisk in Todoist is listed as a helpful hint in their official blog, but there was also some discussion about this not being officially supported, so I am not sure of its status at present.

--Ken

Hi Ken,

- Well, sort of. That is to say, a note in TickTick can be one of two things: a great big note field for anything you care to write, OR a checklist of subtasks

Now, that may sound limited (and it is, a bit) BUT TickTick also allows you to enter comments, ostensibly to share with others: in practice, this is a useful secondary note-taking facility, so if you go for the checklist of subtasks, you can always enter notes as comments.

Now, I prefer checklists of subtasks myself (the Wunderlist approach), because then you don't confuse yourself with multiple deadlines for a linear project (of course that's not a good approach for parallel projects, so bear that in mind; in such cases, OmniFocus is your friend).

But generally, I don't use subtasks, I use notes. I then enter the next thing to do at the top (rather than at the bottom), and since TickTick notes can contain a LOT of text, that works really well for me. Since TickTick has a good search function, and supports extras such as comments, attached files and so on, it's actually very flexible for managing big projects. In fact, I use the comments function as a kind of project timesheet, too. As I said earlier, the main downer is the lack of support for rich text, but I suspect that'll come along sooner or later - the TickTick team clearly take an incremental approach, and it's hugely improved over the last couple of years.

- Todoist notes: well, officially supported or not, I can confirm the asterisk for notes does indeed work, because I've got quite a few notes set up like that. What I would say is that it's not suitable for LONG notes: the response time slows to a crawl, for some reason. So if I'm using that system to take notes (and sometimes it's more convenient to do so than using comments, because in iOS you can see subnotes immediately, whereas you have to call up comments), I tend to restrict them to short single paragraphs. You can, of course, create as many notes as you like. Personally, I tend to use them as visual reminders of specific details I must not forget over the course of the project!

In Todoist, tasks, notes and comments can all be formatted.

Cheers!
Bill

On Todoist, it's also worth mentioning that comments can be very long and multi-paragraph. That **doesn't** seem to affect response times.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the detailed information. I may have to give TickTick a look, if just for reference. I will probably stick with Todoist for personal use, as I mostly like their approach to entering tasks when I am on the go or in a hurry. I used to use Toodledo, and there is a lot that I like about the program, but the UI is still seriously in need of some refinement, and it is frustrating to use or view quickly, which is often the case when I am on the run and using my phone. I tried Asana, but their mobile app was not at all responsive to my needs. I am still using Asana at work, but find it increasingly frustrating that their support for printing is less than optimal. It is almost an afterthought, and find that a shame as I use hard copies in meetings frequently. TickTick may just be another variation on the flavor of chocolate, but the subtle differences may make it a better match to my needs, although Asana does have a few nice features that I appreciate.

--Ken

Bill,

I'm curious if there is something I'm missing about TickTick that makes you like it so much. To me it looks like a very basic version of what tons of other task managers (nirvana, asana, nitro, rtm, procuteev, nozbe) offer. For me the killer missing feature in TickTick is task durations, which make the calendar view seem pointless. But for those who do not find task durations useful, what else is it about TickTick that sets it apart from all the other task managers that have native apps, due dates, recurrence, notes, etc.?

- Dan

Hi Dan,

Yes, you're right, in many ways TickTick is pretty basic, and although it has many of the features of more "advanced" task managers, it doesn't have all of them by any means. It doesn't even look very exciting.

It's a very personal thing, I suppose. I've used dozens of different task managers, and found many of them very good. Ones I still keep on my machine - but no longer use - include 2Do, Things, OmniFocus, ToDo Cloud, The Hit List, Wunderlist, TaskPaper and a whole lot more. I've used other apps as task managers, too, my favourite non-task-manager app being Ulysses.

Many of these apps have seriously cool interfaces, a fantastic array of features, and a wide variety of ways you can sort, dice, filter, mince, prioritise, highlight or otherwise play around with your tasks. OmniFocus and 2Do in particular are capable of being more or less all things to all people.

But: the thing I've found most important for me - and I realise it's not going to be the same for everybody else out there - is plenty of room for notes, plus easy, super-quick access to said notes. TickTick has a very simple but carefully chosen set of attributes. It's a simple three-pane layout. It gives you Lists (what other task managers call projects or folders), plus Tags. It gives you a Calendar view (which I don't really use much). It gives you a set of pre-built filters (Today, Next 7 Days etc.). It has a good search function. It's got other stuff, like attachments, comments, collaboration etc.

BUT above all, what it's got is an absolutely enormous notes field, which is always there (in the desktop version) on the right.
AND it's really easy to enter tasks very quickly - it's got a quick-entry field above the tasks column.
AND it's really easy to change due dates fast - it's got a sensible selection box

In short, I find it's by far the fastest way to create, changes due dates for, and monitor tasks. I generally have the "Next 7 Days" view open, and rarely move from that. I regularly sift through tasks in lists and assign due dates so they show up in the time-based filters. The whole process is very easy, doesn't involve distracting glances at all the other options (they're there, but not in yer face), and gives you immediate access to the key task attributes. Measuring my productivity with TickTick, I find I work faster with it, enjoy using it more, and don't get frustrated by its structure, because it's so simple.

Like any other self-aware CRIMPer, I enjoy messing about with the fine settings in complex task managers such as OmniFocus or The Hit List. But I have returned to TickTick because it gives me a strong feeling of confidence that I'm not going to miss anything, because the lists are simple, the filters are simple, the tags are simple, the note fields are simple, and the selection of features is just right (apart from a lack of rich text). As for start dates, I really don't miss them; I use a single date per project, so use due dates to remind me to start a project, and put the ACTUAL due date in the notes section (at the top), so I don't forget it! It's certainly not the same as a project management system in the strict sense, but again, too many of those are (in my view) excessively complex.

Above all, TickTick doesn't suffer from lots of little, crowded, fiddly fields or buttons that you have to squint to see or exercise micro-precise hand-eye coordination to hit!

Them's my reasons! If I think of any others, I'll let you know.

dan7000 wrote:

Bill,

I'm curious if there is something I'm missing about TickTick that makes
you like it so much. To me it looks like a very basic version of what
tons of other task managers (nirvana, asana, nitro, rtm, procuteev,
nozbe) offer. For me the killer missing feature in TickTick is task
durations, which make the calendar view seem pointless. But for those
who do not find task durations useful, what else is it about TickTick
that sets it apart from all the other task managers that have native
apps, due dates, recurrence, notes, etc.?

- Dan

This was a great follow-up question that got me to thinking about many of the different programs that we have discussed here. What makes one like a program so much? I was thinking it last night, and it seems like Bill's answer this morning answered it well. By and large, Dan and Bill are correct that many of the task management programs (excluding those that follow some type of Kanban layout like Trello et.al) adhere to a reasonably similar set of core features - folders/tags/labels, the task itself, a date/time, notes/comments, priority setting. And I suspect that if only one or two of them were available for use, we would probably adapt our work flows to them and would probably not CRIMP, but would most likely still voice our frustrations. ;) So, as Bill has alluded to in his response, it seems like the deciding factors are not as much about core features as about the finer details, like how TickTick allows one to have a big note space.

I have continued to use Asana at work after having evaluated and rejected some alternative programs and wonder if I should just accept that none meet my needs well enough to warrant a change, and then Bill's closing remark reminds me perhaps this is a game of inches. Is it the little things that draw us to or away from certain programs? I concur with Bill that some programs "suffer from lots of little, crowded, fiddly fields or buttons" and those small UI choices can sometimes be quite useful, and sometimes they are just big burrs under our saddles. I guess that I am willing to trade off features for usability if the exchange makes sense for me. I chose Todoist for personal use over Toodledo due to its interface despite some other shortcomings. And I am now wondering if TickTick's blend of features and UI might be easier than Asana's crowded UI despite lacking some of the latter's advanced features?

I would be curious to know how much more challenging it would be to design a program that offered users a highly customized UI, not unlike what many of today's digital cameras offer through their extensive menu systems. Yes, it would be complicated to initially set up, but afterwards, you could have a semi-custom UI that is set up to meet your needs as opposed to what the marketing department is telling the programmers to design.

--Ken

Hi Ken,

That's supposed to be the point of the terrifying Podio, isn't it... ;-)

I agree with you. And to be fair, there are a number of apps that are moving in that direction. OmniFocus Pro, for example, although the cost is "exciting". And 2Do can be adjusted to a near-infinite extent. Others allow you to display certain fields only (I believe Nozbe does that, for example). But it would be great to find an app that gives you total control over the whole thing.

I suppose that's why I used Ulysses as a task management app for a while: because I could decide on a set of conventions for indicating certain priorities, dates etc. that suited me personally, with plenty of room for notes. As it happens, the lack of reminders and date-based filters put me off, eventually (although I could probably have created the latter, thinking about it). And then I "rediscovered" TickTick, and the visceral feeling of "thank goodness!" was a vigorous reminder that sometimes, an app doesn't have to be gorgeous to be all that you need.

Having said which, I do like the "new" Todoist and have been fiddling with it. It's not - perhaps - quite tempting enough to get me to change, but it's definitely nice, and I've put a lot of tasks in there to see how easy they are to track. TickTick still wins on the ease of use front, however, based on the Visibility of Tasks criterion. But I'm a sucker for nesting...

MadaboutDana wrote:

Hi Ken,

That's supposed to be the point of the terrifying Podio, isn't it... ;-)

I agree with you. And to be fair, there are a number of apps that are
moving in that direction. OmniFocus Pro, for example, although the cost
is "exciting". And 2Do can be adjusted to a near-infinite extent. Others
allow you to display certain fields only (I believe Nozbe does that, for
example). But it would be great to find an app that gives you total
control over the whole thing.

IQTell is/was super customizable and powerful. Toodledo has some good customization too.

FWIW the killer feature for me is being able to see how many of hours of work I've committed myself to for each day in the next week or so, so that I can determine whether I am in danger of missing a deadline or if I need to delegate something or negotiate an extension. That doesn't seem to be something a lot of other people need but it's absolutely necessary for me. The apps I've used for that mostly had other huge drawbacks and a lot are now defunct:

- Taskline (outlook plugin, still exists but outlook-only)
- Taskk (web only, defunct)
- Timeful (basically ios only, never worked great, defunct)
- Focuster (new, promising, but web only and doesn't easily show what I need)
- Sheldonize (similar to focuster)
- Watership Planner, TimeTo and Leadertask (all windows-only, first 2 not in active development)
- skedpal (new, currently windows only but they keep promising ios - could be the best one eventually)

and now, after years of ignoring it:
- Nozbe. Which has all the ease of use and features of more typical task managers but also has task durations and a neat feature that simply adds up the number of hours scheduled for each day. It also has realtime two-way sync with google calendar so if my tasks are packed tightly I can schedule them out and make sure they will work and will fit in around other events.

Still looking for the perfect solution to this use case though, so if others know of one let me know!

Well, it appears that Asana was not content enough to just release some minor updates. They recently released a whole new look, including, you guessed it, a new logo. I am still wading through their changes, but it seems that the FOTM is certainly bright tropical colors and radio button checkboxes, a la Todoist. While I am generally content with very basic (muted) colors for my software, I do not mind some freshening up, but unfortunately the contrast has been dramatically reduced in Asana's left column. They decided to color the column a darker shade of blue, but the font color is not a true white, and is not nearly as easy to see. Some folks have called this issue out, but it seems like a rash of defenders has come to the defense of Asana and their changes. It is a shame that intelligent discussion about the pros and cons of changes cannot be easily had in their forums since this was an easy issue to address without having to dial back the entire update. One thought that did cross my mind as I was looking at their new icon/logo on my phone, some companies like Wordpress (whose app site near Asana and Todoist on my phone) seem to do just fine with their updates without needing to reinvent their brand and write long blog posts about the rebranding process. A bit too much sizzle for my tastes, even if the steak has been improved.

--Ken

Ken,

Though the new look seemed familiar (in that it mimics other similar apps), I found it less intuitive than the old interface, so I took advantage of the "Take Me To Old Asana" feature. And I agree that the left panel of the new interface is difficult to read -- my colleague commented on that, too, without my prompting.

I do like the changes as applied to the iPad app, however.

Steve Z.

Two updates on items discussed in this topic.

First, it appears that Podio may be a dead man walking. There were discussions about Citrix no longer having it in active development, but of course they do say that folks should continue using the program and that it is not going anywhere now.

Second, it seems that Todoist no longer unofficially supports turning a task into a note with a preceding asterisk. The test tasks that I just tried to type appear as a normal task.

Easy come, easy go.

--Ken

Depends on the platform: the asterisk still works on e.g. iOS, but doesn't appear to work on other platforms.

Bloody irritating. An exchange with the support people indicated that Todoist is moving over to strict Markdown only, but in fact it still uses various older conventions - erratically.

I've gone back to Letterspace for the time being, while I look for some kanban solution that actually works and is easy to use (Trello is amazing, but somewhat over-engineered for my taste).

My ideal would be a cross-platform version of Mindscope - currently only available on iPad. What a great concept that is!