I have been a loyal outlining devotee for decades --my brain works in outline form-- so I hope this is a good place to ask this question. I'd be enormously grateful for any advice you can give me.

The software I've used for years and years AND years has been Clarisworks / Appleworks. It has followed me from a Mac to Windows and through multiple OS upgrades, into Windows 7. Whenever I move to a new OS, I cross my fingers and pray that Clarisworks will work there. During all that time, I've been accumulating hundreds --probably thousands-- of *very* important documents in that format.

I'm not a Luddite, far from it. Believe me I'd love to find something more recent, something that I can trust will last me into the future. But honestly, I have yet to find anything as good / clean / usable / powerful / reliable. Every few years I go Googling to find an alternative....and I just go back to Clarisworks.

Everything I've seen is either clunky and ugly --surrounding each line with a box, command buttons, "funny" icons that look like they're drawn with a crayon-- or else it is packed with features I really don't need. For example, I'm not looking for a task manager (very happy with Toodledo) so I don't need checkmarks. I don't need to assign numbers and letters to the lines of the text. I don't need multiple panes. I don't need a fancy corkboard for writing screenplays. I don't need smiley faces at the head of each line or color coding. I just need a clean text editor with solid outlining capabilities.

It also has to be software that won't go extinct anytime soon. I've looked up lots of outlining software just this morning, and to be honest, the websites look like they haven't been touched in years and years. That does not inspire confidence in the stability or likely longevity of their product although I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise.

And now... unfortunately... I need it SOON. For some reason (possibly because of my new antivirus software), Clarisworks has started seriously misbehaving on my computer. I click to open one document and it opens another one. Copy and paste takes literally 15-20 seconds. Clicking any of the buttons at the top (File, Edit, etc) is a wait and hope... wait and hope.. operation. This is very serious because I have tons and tons of truly mission-critical documents in Clarisworks.

BTW, if Evernote had decent outlining capabilities, I'd be a very happy camper. I love Evernote for many reasons, but alas it merely lets you indent the text.

I don't know if I'm asking too much to be able to export my outlines --and keep the formatting. That would truly be a dream come true. One way or the other, whatever you suggest, I'd need to migrate my many *existing* outlines into it, even if I have to go through each document and re-create the indents (yikes!).

Really hoping you have something to suggest. Thanks in advance!

Not a permanent answer to your question for a Clarisworks replacement, but a stepping stone perhaps to get off the sinking ship:
Libreoffice allegedly started to support Clarisworks files (read-only). From LO, you would be able to save in other, more common file formats, preserving the value in your existing files.

I was a big fan of Appleworks/Clarisworks myself, and used it for years. It was indeed a clean, intuitive, and surprisingly powerful program.

What you want to move to depends on what your key value of Clarisworks is now. Is it the outline files themselves? About the only program I've seen that can import old Clarisworks file formats, is, I believe, Abiword (an open source program that runs on Windows, Mac, and Linux) - but it will NOT do the outlining Clarisworks did. (Just did a little googling and see that there are various tricks to import into Openoffice and LibreOffice, too.) But the strategies are different for different kinds of files (word processing, spreadsheet, database). If it's just outlining you're after, none of those will really be a good replacement.

Nor do I know of any true clone, although I just saw that the old Microft WORKS office program can now be downloaded for free. http://downloads.info/windows/office/office-suites/microsoft-works.html . But again, it's not an outliner.

I used to like the Microsoft Works program for DOS, years ago, far better than the big Office suite in Windows. Those works program hit a nice balance of the functions people actually use for most tasks.

I think my first bit of advice would be to try to preserve those important files in something that's as portable as possible. Plain text, preferably. Then, depending upon the functions that really matter to you, you could import them into something else.

Good luck!

I see that a number of Clarisworks users have migrated to Worfklowy - but you would indeed be working to recreate those indents. I've had good look reading in plain text files with tabs for indents into two programs on Windows: tkoutline (free), and Freemind (free). That might be another strategy.

Tiggerlou wrote:

I've been accumulating hundreds --probably thousands-- of
*very* important documents in that format.

I just need a clean text
editor with solid outlining capabilities.

There seem to be too different needs here: a notes database + an outliner. Do these need to be served by a single piece of software or could two specialist software do the job of each? E.g. there are now software where you can link from one to the other and back.

I don't know if I'm asking too much to be able to export my outlines
--and keep the formatting. I'd need to migrate my many
*existing* outlines into it, even if I have to go through each document
and re-create the indents (yikes!).

It might be worth to try to copy and paste into various outliners, or try out all their import options, to see if indents are preserved (e.g. Noteliner, WorkFlowy, Freeplane, Natara Bonsai (if you can get hold of it) or even MS Word's bullet point list). If you can convert the outline into an .RTF document (or first into MS Word .docx and then as .rtf), then you could also try to import it into Outline 4D, which can convert it back into an outline.

For some reason (possibly
because of my new antivirus software), Clarisworks has started seriously
misbehaving on my computer.

Another option is to try a different a/v software (or somehow make it ignore Clarisworks).

Tiggerlou wrote:

It also has to be software that won't go extinct anytime soon. I've
looked up lots of outlining software just this morning, and to be
honest, the websites look like they haven't been touched in years and
years. That does not inspire confidence in the stability or likely
longevity of their product although I'd be happy to be convinced
otherwise.

There are some software that have been so well made (kept simple) that they continue to be stable and work well in subsequent OS's (Natara Bonsai comes to mind), even though they are no longer developed.

I think the important factor concerning longevity of data is the ability to export/import with ease from/into as wide a variety of standard formats as possible. Or to use software that does not keep all the associated content wrapped into a single proprietary file that only it can open but instead keeps content files in their own format (.doc, .xls, .jpg etc.) and only links to them.

Have you considered MyInfo? It has most of the capabilities that you are looking for. And it's been around for many years, is very stable, and is in active (though slow) development.

Thanks SO much for your suggestions. I'm really grateful that you've taken the time to consider this.

Quick question: when you suggest importing into Libreoffice, does that mean it can import the .cwk files directly into LibreOffice? Or would I simply copy and paste the text?

Somebody asked what my key value if for Clarisworks --definitely *outlining*. I never used Clarisworks for anything but that.

One thing I particularly appreciated about Clarisworks was the fact that I could make the indents and the margins as small as possible and save that as a stationery document to use over and over again as a blank document. That meant I could pack the maximum number of characters into each line, even with several "generations of children". I named stationery file TWILI (the way I like it) and opened all new documents from that stationery document. It would be wonderful to find something that would have that flexibility.

Thanks for your comments about longevity of software. Saving documents in a file format that is widely used would of course make a difference in that regard.

I will try out your suggestions. If I have questions, I may well come back to this forum. I really appreciate your help!

Tiggerlou wrote:

Somebody asked what my key value if for Clarisworks --definitely
*outlining*. I never used Clarisworks for anything but that.

One thing I particularly appreciated about Clarisworks was the fact that
I could make the indents and the margins as small as possible and save
that as a stationery document to use over and over again as a blank
document. That meant I could pack the maximum number of characters into
each line, even with several "generations of children". I named
stationery file TWILI (the way I like it) and opened all new documents
from that stationery document. It would be wonderful to find something
that would have that flexibility.

If you're looking for an outliner to work on individual outlines (rather than a database for organising masses of heterogeneous data), then you may want to take a look at Outline 4D. While unfortunately it's no longer being developed, it's fairly light, and it can import and export .RTF files (which you might be able to convert your files to by first converting them to an OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODT file, and then to an RTF file.

Outline 4D also allows you to save your own formatted template (though I'm not sure if it's as compact as Claris). I posted one of my 10-level templates here:
http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=39015.0

Is this what you mean by outlining in Clarisworks? (I don't know anything about it.)
http://www.wap.org/journal/outlining/Outlining.html

Caution: I haven't actually tried to import cwk files into LibreOffice, but I've seen on the net that several people have done so, and it's a direct import, not cut and paste.

I haven't found a modern outliner that gives me the control over display you mention. Interestingly, you can do something very like this in LibreOffice: build very precise definitions of margin and font size and style for each HEADING. Then you can use the Navigator to do the expansion, collapsing, and text movement. But it's way clunkier. You can save it as a template, too.

Nonetheless, if you have TWO aims (one to preserve the historical files, and the second to find a comparable tool going forward, LibreOffice will get you through the first one.


Dr Andus wrote:

Tiggerlou wrote:
>Somebody asked what my key value if for Clarisworks --definitely
>*outlining*. I never used Clarisworks for anything but that.
>
>One thing I particularly appreciated about Clarisworks was the fact
that
>I could make the indents and the margins as small as possible and save
>that as a stationery document to use over and over again as a blank
>document. That meant I could pack the maximum number of characters into
>each line, even with several "generations of children". I named
>stationery file TWILI (the way I like it) and opened all new documents
>from that stationery document. It would be wonderful to find something
>that would have that flexibility.

If you're looking for an outliner to work on individual outlines (rather
than a database for organising masses of heterogeneous data), then you
may want to take a look at Outline 4D. While unfortunately it's no
longer being developed, it's fairly light, and it can import and export
.RTF files (which you might be able to convert your files to by first
converting them to an OpenOffice/LibreOffice ODT file, and then to an
RTF file.

Outline 4D also allows you to save your own formatted template (though
I'm not sure if it's as compact as Claris). I posted one of my 10-level
templates here:
http://www.donationcoder.com/forum/index.php?topic=39015.0

Is this what you mean by outlining in Clarisworks? (I don't know
anything about it.)
http://www.wap.org/journal/outlining/Outlining.html

More info on outlining in OpenOffice.org/LibreOffice.

http://openoffice.blogs.com/openoffice/2008/03/an-equivalent-o.html

I tried that for awhile. With a big monitor, you can open the Navigator window at all times, compose in the main Writer window, and do the structural editing in the Navigator pane. It's painful, but possible.

Welcome to the forum. If anyone can help you, it's this group.

If I may, it seems like your requirements boil down to this: Ability to create outlines in a single pane with the look and feel of a word processor, and which can import ClarisWorks files.

Have you considered OneNote. Yes, it has a lot of bells and whistles (as well as meat and potatoes), but you don't have to use them. It handles outlining reasonably well. I don't know how the import of ClarisWorks files would work. You'd have to give it a try.

I wrote a short review of OneNote as an outliner on my blog, which might be of help. One caveat, the review was of ON 2010, not the newest version. Find it here:

https://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/2012/07/19/announcing-the-onenote-smack-down/

Good luck.

Steve Z.

Welcome to Sharewood! Brings traffic at least, if it's not good for anything else. This being said:

I

I also think you should try to identify if there is a real connection with your security software, or if it is anything else; did you reinstall the Clary thing, after de-activating the virus sw?

One more 1-pane try would be NoteMap (costs 150 bucks, trial is free), but "Clarywhatever windows export" does not bring results that would inspire any hope, it seems.

Please have a look into your handbook / help file, and verify which export means are available.

Variant: Is it possible to transfer from Clary Win to Clary Mac, and to get some better export from there then? (Sub-variant: within the possibilities of your old Mac and your old Mac Clary version?)

Try that (2-pane) Dutch outline sw, too: Where any other outline sw fails with importing, that one is your last hope. (I'm too tired to look it up, but Sharewood knows em all.)

II

Create a new Clary file, with no personal content, and just some lines of headings ("indentations"), and with text, the wordings describing what it is ("": 0 level, heading 1, sub-heading 1, text under sub-heading 3, you get it). Do some formatting wirthin that, again describing that: Replicate what in reality appears in your files (photos? oh my!), but then publish it here, together with its complete header and all (from opening it within an editor).

That would help in determining if there is a chance to get the result into something else, by replacing possible internal codes by codes that could be read on import, for the different outline levels.

Do similar for any available export format (rtf, html, other?); html would be easiest if available.

Since you get hundreds / thousands of such files, it would be worthwile to set up an export script, for one doing the necessary codings within a useful export format, and then, of course, for treating all those files in bulk.

III

Last resort: Is it possible to export the structure (i.e. what in 2-pane would have been the tree) only? Alternatively, this could perhaps be done by another script; I suppose that there, indentation levels are with 1, 2, 3... tabs or something similar. And then, a script could run all night(s) long, with ^c and ^v doing the principal work; I transferred a 6-digit items' figure this way from UltraRecall to ActionOutline this way, over many nights (slow pc, and clipboard operations ain't that robust if you try to speed them up and think you get away without automatic checks).

Clarification: Some outliners could import from html, as a flat list at the very least, and then the aforementioned indentation codes could possibly be retranslated into the indentation codes needed by the target program.

Clarification needed: Must it be 1-pane again (and if so, why?), or could it be 2-pane now? (Anyway, some 2-pane sw could serve as intermediate between 1-pane, and then 1-pane again.)

That's inappropriate -- I believe this forum isn't a place for trolling. I enjoy Stephen Z's blog and have learned many useful things over the years, including his post above.

22111 wrote

Welcome to Sharewood! Brings traffic at least, if it’s not good for anything else.

If you ignore him and his convoluted posts, he tends to go away.

Paul Korm wrote:

That's inappropriate -- I believe this forum isn't a place for trolling.
I enjoy Stephen Z's blog and have learned many useful things over the
years, including his post above.

22111 wrote
>Welcome to Sharewood! Brings traffic at least, if it’s not good
for anything else.

22111
Welcome to Sharewood! Brings traffic at least, if it’s not good for anything else.

I am with Paul: That's inappropriate. And completely irrelevant to the topic.
For me, this statement says a lot about "22111" - and nothing about Stephen Z.

Franz

Two more things.

22111 wrote:

I also think you should try to identify if there is a real connection
with your security software, or if it is anything else; did you
reinstall the Clary thing, after de-activating the virus sw?

One more 1-pane try would be NoteMap (costs 150 bucks, trial is free),
but "Clarywhatever windows export" does not bring results that would
inspire any hope, it seems.

1. I would no longer invest money in Notemap. It has been abandoned years ago. I didn't even know you can still buy a license.

2. The software is called Clarisworks and not Clary or Clarywhatever.

Franz

Thank you, Franz, Paul and Bob. I appreciate the supportive comments.

And 22111, have a nice day.

Steve Z.

Franz Grieser wrote:

22111
>Welcome to Sharewood! Brings traffic at least, if it’s not good
for anything else.

I am with Paul: That's inappropriate. And completely irrelevant to the
topic.
For me, this statement says a lot about "22111" - and nothing about
Stephen Z.

I too completely agree.

Steve's blog is of great value, helpful and illuminating - especially, I imagine, to readers interested in the subject matter of this forum (but, I imagine, not only to such people - I personally have also really enjoyed Steve's posts about his travels). And whenever I read of people flummoxed by Tinderbox, I refer them to the valuable and unique series about the software on Steve's blog; it's certainly been of value to me.

bobmclain wrote:

If you ignore him and his convoluted posts, he tends to go away.

I agree that the best response is just not to read his posts. More on this behaviour here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)#Psychological_characteristics

Having said that, it's a good opportunity to recognise what a great resource Steve's blog is. New members may want to look through his "Software" category, lot's of excellent stuff there on outliners:

http://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/category/software/

Adding Hugh and Dr Andus to my list of thank yous. It is very gratifying to know that people whose intellect and knowledge I admire find my blog useful. A nice way to start the new year!

Steve Z.