Do any of you use Daniel Ludeke's Zettlekasten, or know of any English guides/tutorials etc. Much like ConnectedText, it looks like it is very useful and suited to my purpose (social Science research/writing), but (again like CT) I cannot figure out how to use it. I remain frustrated by CT, despite Dr Andus' guides, and many other's good view of it. My own limitations I am sure - I keep trying though, but it just leaves me feeling idiotically simple-minded that I cannot get my head round it. I am hope that Zettekasten may either reveal itself more easily or provide a spur to finally cracking CT!
I cling to such idealistic optimism too much, i am sure. Hey ho.

MenaGerie

(within parentheses: weird nom de plume, here? In fact I consider "Tennessee" Williams one of the utmost playwrights of all time, and I say this in spite of the fact that I'm very aware of the problems of his later life, and of his later writings for the stage),

would you be so kind as to share some experience with that Zettelkasten sw? Perhaps with respect to askSam? I had always been intrigued by the "Zettelkasten" paradigm (which had been the very first "set-up" I had worked in) but I never grasped any possible "advantage" "over" the outline paradigm, so I'd be certainly very instructive both for myself and for many readers if you gave some insight into the advantages and shortcomings of one of the electronic realizations of that concept.

Thank you very much in advance (if your post is more than just some 3 lines, that is! ;-) )

2211
The screen names is less a Tennessee Williams reference that a Billy Cobam and Bud Powell reference (although I misremembered the Bud Powell piece Glass Enclosure!). I was 'Prog Rocking out' at the time!
I have very little experience with Zettlekasten - and none of AskSam. I gave it an outing a very long time ago, when beginning to scout out the whole outliner thing - it just didn’t feel right after using MyInfo, which I took to straight away; and still use to this day.
The reason for my post was to try and get some English language pointers as to Zettlekasten's (Zttlkn) utility and way of deploying it. I have little time to spend on extensive experimentation, even on software I can understand. But Zttlkn looks promising, from Manfred Kuehn's comments [http://takingnotenow.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/luedeckes-zettelkasten-again.html] and from what I can decipher with the help of Google translate.
What I have found that seems to do what I want (academic social science/theory) is NotaBene (NB), particularity the ibidem/orbis functions. Specifically, I want a way of recording my reading notes against a bibliographic reference - consisting of quotes, precis, and my reflections, in such a way that I can assemble multiple notes on a particular topic/sub-topic into the bare-bones of a discussion/argument without losing the bibliographical references (fear of plagiarism accusations). In this way I could in future assemble, reassemble, experiment, synthesise the fruits of my diverse labours in multiple creative ways - hopefully to produce novel insights etc.
Unfortunately I found NB rather annoying and confusing (with its hidden 'mark up type codes' messing with my paragraphs etc): and as I said initially, I simply feel like a fool sitting in front of Connected Text, not knowing what to do, or what is going on. Not a good attribute for a piece of software.
My search continues... crimp-style.

MenAgerie wrote:

Specifically, I want a way of recording my reading notes
against a bibliographic reference - consisting of quotes, precis, and my
reflections, in such a way that I can assemble multiple notes on a
particular topic/sub-topic into the bare-bones of a discussion/argument
without losing the bibliographical references (fear of plagiarism
accusations). In this way I could in future assemble, reassemble,
experiment, synthesise the fruits of my diverse labours in multiple
creative ways - hopefully to produce novel insights etc.

Have you looked at Citavi? It looks like a compromise between a Zettelkasten system and a hierarchical database/outliner:
https://www.citavi.com/en/features.html

Dr Andus wrote:

Have you looked at Citavi? It looks like a compromise between a
Zettelkasten system and a hierarchical database/outliner:
https://www.citavi.com/en/features.html

Here is a Youtube video on it as well:
http://youtu.be/YoZd_j0AdG4

MenAgerie,

1)

"The screen names is less a Tennessee Williams reference that a Billy Cobam and Bud Powell reference (although I misremembered the Bud Powell piece Glass Enclosure!)." - see? That's what's called lateral thinking ;-)

"I have very little experience with Zettlekasten - and none of AskSam." - I mentioned AS since in fact, it's a Zettlekasten prog by design which then has been spiced up somewhat.

"What I have found that seems to do what I want (academic social science/theory)" - perhaps others got the task at hand, BESIDES from those you mentioned; I did not. Let's put it another way: What is the functionality any primitive, totally basic outliner would not be able to deliver?

From that, we could choose a more elaborate one, depending on your needs (since there isn't any "perfect outliner" out there, so making compromise is a necessity here). Or from another pov again, what might be the problems the outliner concept as such could make arise in your task(s)? Or even simpler, since you use MI already, what are your current (or future, foreseeable) probs with MI, for the tasks at hand (since all those you mentioned would fit perfectly into what MI offers)?

As for NB, it's said to be some (rather expensive, but academic pricing should be acceptable) derivative from (the defunct) XyWriter - when trialling NB, I didn't see the similarities (I had extensively used XW several years, it was something incredibly good for its time (and even today), so that must be hidden under the hook. Anyway, I fled NB some 90 min. into my trialling and never touched it again (but that's not necessarily an argument, or then possibly against me, not the sw).

"I simply feel like a fool sitting in front of Connected Text, not knowing what to do, or what is going on. Not a good attribute for a piece of software" - that is one thing (and well, let's face it, the-interminable-andus (is it 6 years now? 8?) and Prof. Kühn are almost alone in saying that's not true); additional offerings of CT might be another (which in extremis would justify your delving into it if that's the only way) - we've had a discussion on "outlining plus something other" here some months ago, the search term would be "KEdit".

This being said, if you've used MI extensively, and need something "better", i.e. more appropriate for your special task, another look into AS might be indicated, and I'm 200 p.c. serious here. (= some kind of "programming language" for searching, even search for numeric values in different fields with "greater than" and all that, very elaborate combinations of any such search, "search in search results", AND then output ("reports") of anything if you need that (and which would be the prob with dtSearch if I'm not mistaken, but otherwise dtSearch is worth another look, too).

For "regular work", Zeoli's right in "not touching" AS, but for some scholars, AS might be the very best 3-digit-priced sw that has ever been programmed (and academic pricing's available, too).

2)

For the task of entangling AND differentiating "own work vs. reference material", I'd try different colors / formatting and different indentation levels within the tree (so beware of UR where you could only could do this by symbols). Btw - here, I'll make again unhappy Bill (wsp; but he can't contradict me since it's true), it's precisely MI which had, many years ago yet, some descriptions of what its print and export functions ostensibly could do, re sub-groups of items, in its helpful (but functionality you weren't able to trial since they were withheld for after buying), and then, boom, after buying, this part of the product was vaporware, and is vaporware even today.

Whilst AS does such things and always has done (be it deadware or not; and similar remarks apply to KEdit: "deadware's not badware, necessarily" (all rights reserved; hint to would-be radio speakers)).

Thanks for setting me off to look at Citaviagain Dr Andus. I think I have had a bit of an epiphany as you did with ConnectedText! I had looked at Citavi before (right back at the beginning I believe), and it didn't impress. I think I was looking then for a pdf and reference manager. In any event I passed it by.
Now it looks just the job! I had not noticed the 'outlining' function before (here called a 'category list'), and discovering this just turned a light on!
Many thanks

MenAgerie wrote:

I had not noticed the 'outlining' function
before (here called a 'category list')

Glad to hear it works for you.

It sounds like you're on Windows, but people with an interest in Zettelkasten software on the Mac might be interested in this alpha-testing opportunity of what sounds to me like a possible new Zettelkasten software:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/2014/01/need-alpha-testers/

Unfortunately the developer is a bit light on detail, but he's been covering the Zettelkasten method on his blog for a wile:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/tags/zettelkasten/

Ooooppps - forgot something...
< what are your current (or future, foreseeable) probs with MI, for the tasks at hand
I love MyInfo - it is really easy to understand - straight out of the box - and I am able to shuffle stuff around to get an order to my written thought snippets. I also use it for storing all sorts of stuff for my teaching activities - lesson plans, feedback to students, regularly repeated emails (we get asked the same questions over and over by students each year!), etc.

My MI databases are getting a bit too crowded to move through cleanly and clearly these days. I chop them up into smaller topic now and then. But generally I use MyInfo as a 'thought dump' a big bucket of ideas and useful bits an pieces - the the drawer in an old chest where I keep old pens, bit of string, buttons, etc - they will be useful one day!

Thanks Doctor Andus for the reference to Christian's blog. I'm familiar with the history of Zettelkasten from reading Dr. Kuhn's blog. The approach appeals to me, even to the point of doing it the old fashioned way - longhand and on index cards. Gradually I've been learning to implement it in my own haphazard way.

Christian's discussion of Zettelkasten on a few of his posts which I have just read is both helpful and encouraging.

I appreciate the recognition that the process is not simply a means to a specific, predefined output, but also is an end in itself or, rather, a means to other ends which reveal themselves in the interaction or conversation with the Zettelkasen over time and as a function of the growing store of information.

Daly

Dr Andus wrote:

MenAgerie wrote:
>I had not noticed the 'outlining' function
>before (here called a 'category list')

Glad to hear it works for you.

It sounds like you're on Windows, but people with an interest in
Zettelkasten software on the Mac might be interested in this
alpha-testing opportunity of what sounds to me like a possible new
Zettelkasten software:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/2014/01/need-alpha-testers/

Unfortunately the developer is a bit light on detail, but he's been
covering the Zettelkasten method on his blog for a wile:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/tags/zettelkasten/

Daly wrote,

"I appreciate the recognition that the process is not simply a means to a specific, predefined output, but also is an end in itself" - that's exactly my point in discussing outlining vs. tagging: in the former, the same benefit (or even much more), whilst being absent in the latter. And of course, by "end in itself", we don't mean "deliberate fussing around", but sort of "precomining and presorting, in order to get better results, better output, when we access it again to produce output".

Thus, "end in itself" is just a little simplification-in-terms, but we want to express, and agree such pre(liminary)-work (which is not available in tagging, e.g.) is highly constructive FOR (and in) the ultimate output later on.

;-)

Hi!

Dr Andus wrote:

It sounds like you're on Windows, but people with an interest in
Zettelkasten software on the Mac might be interested in this
alpha-testing opportunity of what sounds to me like a possible new
Zettelkasten software:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/2014/01/need-alpha-testers/

Unfortunately the developer is a bit light on detail, but he's been
covering the Zettelkasten method on his blog for a wile:
http://christiantietze.de/posts/tags/zettelkasten/

Sorry I have to disappoint you: the tool I'm working on is a productivity tool for writers. It's not the Zettelkasten application itself. For that, I need way more time. I still recommend nvALT on the Mac. On Windows, ResophNotes comes closest. There's a NotationalVelocity VIM Plugin for the extra geeky among you, too, which makes you platform independent:

http://cwoac.github.io/nvim/about.html

Anyway, thanks for caring about development. It means a lot to me!

-- Christian

Christian Tietze wrote:

Sorry I have to disappoint you: the tool I'm working on is a
productivity tool for writers. It's not the Zettelkasten application
itself. For that, I need way more time. I still recommend nvALT on the
Mac. On Windows, ResophNotes comes closest. There's a
NotationalVelocity VIM Plugin for the extra geeky among you, too, which
makes you platform independent:
http://cwoac.github.io/nvim/about.html

Hi Christian - welcome to the forum. Thanks for the clarification and for the suggestions. Please do let us know once your tool is available.

Christian,

you give url's of third parties, I'll yours here: christiantietze.de - don't be that modest!

Everybody, please, bear in mind that Luhmann's Zettelkasten (Chris, could you rectify this thread's awful title, please, manually? ;-) "Zettelkaten" is so awful, it's a slap in the face, every time!) was created BEFORE pc time, so "120% purity considerations" should NOT guide as, nor should they too narrowly guide any developer of any "Zettelkasten" sw "rendering".

In other words, Luhmann's "choices" often simply were triggered by the inherent limitations of a physical index card system - he probably would have been so happy to overcome them and replace them with something more adequate both to IMS, and to thinking-about-what-you've-got-within-your-IMS-of-then.

As the Germans say, don't be more papal than the Pope itself is... especially if you've got good reason to assume the Pope wasn't even free in his decisions. ;-)

( This being said, I'd be happy, too, if you shared some thoughts about IMS here, for possible discussion, be it before, or after implemention into your sw. )

In other words, Luhmann's "choices" often simply were triggered by the
inherent limitations of a physical index card system - he probably would
have been so happy to overcome them and replace them with something more
adequate both to IMS, and to
thinking-about-what-you've-got-within-your-IMS-of-then.

That's exactly how I feel when it comes to Daniel Lüdecke's Zkn³ software, although my concerns are only miniscule. Zkn³ mimics paper-based Zettelkästen too much for my taste.

I consider the concept of "Folgezettel" (note sequences) one of Luhmann's most important developments. Zkn³ supports this as well. Basically, you start with one note and put it in the archive. You add more notes, numbering them accordingly. Now you discover something new and want to add this to note #23. Because a note with the no. 24 exists already, there's no room it seems. But instead of putting the new note at the end of the archive, you branch off where it makes sense: you label it no. 23a and put it after no. 23. A tree-like structure emerges with time.

This way, at least theoretically, you could put whole texts into the archive, spread across lots of notes and sub-branches. Just grab everything between #23 and #24 and the pile is guaranteed to be of related content.

This was necessary because paper offers limited space only. Text files don't. You can put whole book manuscripts in one single text document.

I don't encourage doing so, though. Large files are harder to handle mentally, I suppose. I like to make notes atomic: short, concise, self-contained. I can deal better with that. Could be just me.

If the order of notes doesn't matter because you could (a) either put everything related into one single document, or (b) use convenient hyperlinks (like WikiLinks[1]) to create traversable connections, then you wouldn't need to enumerate notes like Luhmann did.

Instead, I found the date way more valuable. So I put a date-time stamp like "201403141728" in front of my notes, which stands for the current moment of time at UTC+1: "2014-03-14 17:28". Notes which are related thematically aren't put together this way, but I don't need this feature anyhow since I neither have to overcome paper-based limitations, nor do I want to store book manuscripts in my Zettelkasten note archive. There are project folders and text outlines for this stuff.

When note identifiers are this arbitrary, you can just as well put them at the beginning of each paragraph you write. Your whole Zettelkasten can be in one single file and it wouldn't matter since you have full-text search capabilities built into every text editor available. Thinking in files in convenient, but it isn't necessary. (There's a post on my website on this.[2])

---
[1]: Most wiki software create links if you write words in CamelCase or surround them with [[double brackets]]. That equals zero cost to create links between notes.
[2]: The post on identity is at: http://christiantietze.de/posts/2014/02/add-identity/

Christian Tietze wrote:

Instead, I found the date way more valuable. So I put a date-time stamp
like "201403141728" in front of my notes

I also follow this method. This is where ConnectText's special "date topics" come in particularly handy, as they get organised by date, they can be browsed through a calendar, as well as searched with date-related operators. Here is what date topics look like in edit and view mode:

http://welcometosherwood.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/ct-screenshot-2.jpg
http://welcometosherwood.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/ct-screenshot.jpg

you have
full-text search capabilities built into every text editor available.

You could say that search based on textual content--as well as filtering based on labels or categories--do the thematic relating of the notes for you automatically, even for connections between topics that you may have missed before.

I know ConnectedText only because MK at http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com blogs about it a lot. Its means to connect notes seem more "rich" than what regular Wiki-style links do. Anyway, I think it's an interesting application. Since I have no Windows computer availible, I can't review this application myself, sadly. I don't know a lot about software for Windows except some pretty basic stuff, so the reviews in this forum are a valuable resource. Thanks for the screenshots!

Christian Tietze wrote:

I know ConnectedText only because MK at
http://takingnotenow.blogspot.com blogs about it a lot. Its means to
connect notes seem more "rich" than what regular Wiki-style links do.
Anyway, I think it's an interesting application. Since I have no Windows
computer availible, I can't review this application myself, sadly.

I think he uses it on a Mac with Parallels, I believe, and someone on his blog also suggested Wine:
http://takingnotenow.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/connectetext-on-ipod.html

As for the linking possibilities in CT, there are a few. If you use date topics, then firstly there is a chronological order, and the topics are linked automatically to and through a calendar (e.g. clicking on a day brings up the notes taken that day, ordered by time). Then you can of course link notes directly using the double brackets.

Then you can use so-called attributes for example to link notes according to some key characteristics (e.g. the elements of the bibliographic reference, such as authors' names, publication date, title, publisher, publication type etc.). And then there are the categories (labels), which you can use to classify the note content according to the main themes (qualitative coding, in a sense).

An additional layer of classification can be done by the "named blocks" feature (which is more like a QDA coding feature), but it's quite complicated to use and i think it's not fully mature yet as a feature.

Finally, it's also possible to link to external files, including to specific pages in a PDF (though it's a manual process using markup, so it's more fiddly than some other dedicated referencing software--but this is where templates come in).

Here is what my reading note template looks like for my Zettelkasten in CT (not sure if the forum software will display it all, let's see):

[[$NOTOC:]]

=Quote=


=Comment=


=Reference=

[[Author:=Smith, K.]] ([[Year:=2003]]). [[Title:=The Best Book in the World]]. Cambridge, MA: [[Publisher:=Harvard University Press]].

=PDF=

[[$APP: "C:\Program Files\Tracker Software\PDF Viewer\PDFXCview.exe" /a "page=68" "C:\Users\Dr Andus\Documents\PhD\Literature\Smith_2003.pdf" | Page 68]]


[[$CATEGORY:Smith, K.|best books]]