Okay, I've now downloaded the very latest version of ConnectedText (fired by criticism of the latter in another thread) and have been sniffing at it with interest.

First of all, it is, of course, a full outliner. In fact, it allows you to maintain multiple outlines - as many as you like per project, as well as a 'project outline' - oh, and folding inside notes, as well, which means you can use it as a one-pane, two-pane or three-pane outliner with sub-outliner. That's pretty powerful!

It also has extensive support for user-defined structures (topics, categories, plus the mindmap-like Navigator), and if that's not enough, a table of contents pane as well. Not to mention revisions, history, and various other goodies I haven't had time to glance at. Oh, and a capable (if not perfect) search engine. In short, it amply fulfills all the criteria required to be classified as an outliner.

However: with respect to earlier criticism of the markup approach - yes, I can see what you mean. Precisely because CT is capable of managing very length and complex notes, it would be nice to have a pure WYSIWYG option - editing a markup language in a lengthy note can become quite tedious. In fact, given the success of Notebooks in supporting simple text, Markdown and HTML-based rich text simultaneously (in Windows, MacOS and iOS), I can't see any very good reason why notes shouldn't be managed in a WYSIWYG interface. It would add another interpretative layer between user and app, but any potential slowdown would be offset by a hugely enhanced UX. Ideally, advanced users would be able to switch off this option and revert to the markup language if they wished to.

Just some more thoughts on an application that has already been extensively discussed here and elsewhere. But I must say, I'm much more impressed by this latest version of CT than I have been by previous versions.

MadaboutDana wrote:

I can't see any very good reason why notes shouldn't be
managed in a WYSIWYG interface

I see your point and may even agree with you. :) I presume there must be some technical difficulties or cost/benefit calculations as to whether to better serve existing users who are fine with markup or widen the user base who might prefer WYSIWYG.

One reason why markups need to be seen during editing in CT is because there are some powerful notations (such as properties or the new "named blocks" feature) that are only visible in edit mode. But an optional edit mode could solve that problem, as you suggest.

But I must say, I'm much more
impressed by this latest version of CT than I have been by previous
versions.

Actually this version is a bit dated now, you might want to check out v.6 when it comes out. From a writing and outlining point of view the main improvements are 1) unlimited floating view-only windows, 2) ability to attach folders and files to the outline in the Outliner pane, 3) new outlining abilities in the TOC, and 4) the named blocks (for annotating text).

Oh, no, I'm talking about CT again! You really must not encourage me... I need to check myself into rehab ;)

Hm - it all sounds fairly scrumptious, I must say. And very outliner-y, for those who aren't yet convinced!

I'm using Markdown in a lot of iOS apps (Editorial, Day One, Notebooks, Trunk Notes, Daedalus etc.), so I'm not averse to markup language as such - it's a great solution for touch typists in particular (I am fortunate enough to be one).

But it's long documents that suffer from markup language overload, especially if you want to edit a couple of words in a paragraph right at the end of a lengthy piece of text, and on switching over to 'edit' view, have to track down the specific bit you want in what is, to all intents and purposes, an entirely new application. Editorial and WikidPad both avoid this horrendous conflict by showing a pseudo-WYSIWYG view of the text as well as the codes; this is quite a clever compromise (Editorial also has a full preview mode, but in a completely separate screen, which is an even better idea).

I'm hoping V6 will allow you to open multiple notes/topics in separate windows - do you know if that's the case? We translators are always thinking in terms of multi-language versions of the same piece of text...

MadaboutDana wrote:

especially if you want to edit a couple of words in a paragraph right at
the end of a lengthy piece of text, and on switching over to 'edit'
view, have to track down the specific bit you want in what is, to all
intents and purposes, an entirely new application.

It does not always work, but there is a workaround to that problem in CT. If you highlight a bit of text in view mode, and switch to the edit mode, then generally the editor will jump to the highlighted text.

I'm hoping V6 will allow you to open multiple notes/topics in separate
windows - do you know if that's the case?

Yes, that's what I meant by "unlimited view-only floating windows." They are "view-only" because you can't edit them, and they are "floating" because you can't dock them. So you can only edit one note at a time but can view an unlimited number of other notes (or the same note) in floating windows.

Deffo scrumptious, then!

Couple of questions (newbie here) about CT. I want to build a "thought base", collecting, classing and massaging thoughts from many past files of mine. This will involve hundreds if not thousands of text items. Best I can tell, CT requires a unique name for each topic. While I can probably fit most of these items under 30 or so categories, coming up with a unique title for each item seems out of reach. Any way around this requirement? I have the trial version, haven't decided yet whether to buy.
Second question is a tech help question. I've created an outline, but now I cannot close it. I get a pop up saying "outline is modified, do you want to save it?" I say yes and nothing happens. I wonder if it's because I have not named the outline, which I do not see how to do.
I'd also like to solicit recommendations here if anyone can suggest a more ideal software for my thought base project than CT. I do need outliner capability because that is how I think and write.

andyjim wrote:

This will involve hundreds if not thousands of text items. Best
I can tell, CT requires a unique name for each topic. While I can
probably fit most of these items under 30 or so categories, coming up
with a unique title for each item seems out of reach. Any way around
this requirement?

I presume these thousands of text items already have their own file names, so as far as I understand, you can just put them all in the same folder and use CT's import wizard to import them. I think CT will just keep the same names for the topic titles. Then you can use categories within CT to classify them etc.

Second question is a tech help question. I've created an outline, but
now I cannot close it. I get a pop up saying "outline is modified, do
you want to save it?" I say yes and nothing happens. I wonder if it's
because I have not named the outline, which I do not see how to do.

Saving the outline doesn't close it. To get rid of it, you can open a new outline, or an already saved outline, or close the Outline pane altogether.

I'd also like to solicit recommendations here if anyone can suggest a
more ideal software for my thought base project than CT. I do need
outliner capability because that is how I think and write.

That will be a subjective choice. If you want something similar to but not CT, you could try some of the other desktop wikis (Zim, Wikidpad - though I don't know about their outliner), TheBrain, Piggydb, MS OneNote, myBase or some more hierarchical-type tools like UltraRecall.

Thanks much, Dr. Andus, for your input. Been reading you here and there, and I doubt there are many as informed as you on this stuff.
Most do not have their own filenames (I should've made that clear), as I generate them in a sort of stream of consciousness file, which I do in Word outline. I call it a freeboard, and do one each year.
I've used Word outline for nearly 20 years I guess, and love it. Clean - no messy icons, bullets, etc. I can drop a bunch of loose text in, slap it into outline view and massage it with keystrokes. Can you do this (drop text in, then mess with it in the outliner) in other outliner apps? I've tried only a few (shallow pockets).
So one of my questions should have been, can I do this (drop text in, then outline it) in CT? I will need to be able to for my project.
As to the outline window in CT - I cannot close it. I hit the x and it just pops up the save message; will not close. And I cannot open a new outline - pops up the save message again. But, once I find what I'm doing wrong with that, it sounds as though you're saying I cannot have more than one outline window open at once in CT. Hmm. Everything I write is in outline, because Word outline, with its keystroke manipulation, is my rearranging tool, and Word outline is so clean. It's really the ease of manipulation, as much as the outline format itself, that I'm after.
Ok, that gets me to another requirement for my project: I want to have a number of snippets open on the desktop, shuffle them around, stack them up, snip and move text from one to another, gather them and slap them all into an outline for further massaging. I'd prefer each window, each snippet have outline capability, but can do without that if I can manipulate snippets freely. (Gingko?)
Do any of the other apps you suggested (Zim, Wikidpad, TheBrain, Piggydb, MS OneNote, myBase or UltraRecall) have good clean outline and snippet manipulation capabilities?
As you notice, I'm not even mentioning wiki capabilities, but that's only because I have no experience with wiki. I'd probably like it a lot, maybe even wonder how I ever got along without, but in my ignorance of that, outlining and text manipulation are my priorities. I might sing a different tune if I got my feet wet with something like CT. I guess it's more or less relational vs hierarchic. I think the ideal would be both, which CT sort of is, I gather. Yet it may lack the efficient text manipulation I'm looking for.
Or perhaps the right combination of apps, something like the way you (Dr. Andus) approach things, might better suit my particular quirkiness. Two, three, even four simple apps, if they work well together, might do better than one monolith. Any thoughts?
Sorry so lengthy. Don't know how to be brief.

AndyJim,

If I understand you correctly, you have longer documents that you want to split into shorter snippets. If that is the case, you can do that very easily with CT. Dump the text into one topic (what CT calls a single document), then there is a command that will take selected text, cut it from the current topic, create a new topic, leaving behind a wiki link in the original topic. With this process you can cut a long topic into many small ones very quickly.

Steve Z.

andyjim wrote:

Most do not have their own filenames

As Steve has suggested, you can import your existing Word documents and then chop them up using the "cut to new topic" function.

ICan you do this
(drop text in, then mess with it in the outliner) in other outliner
apps?

Well, each of them have strengths and weaknesses in this respect.

So one of my questions should have been, can I do this (drop text in,
then outline it) in CT? I will need to be able to for my project.

There would be a number of options to do this in CT. 1) You could keep your notes in a single long topic (the original imported Word doc) and use the headings markup to overlay an outline, which can be viewed in the Table of Contents pane. 2) You could use the aforementioned "cut to new topic" to move selected sections to new topics, and then view the relationship between the original topic and the newly linked topics in the Navigator pane. 2) You could also create a new meta-outline in the Outline pane, by dragging and dropping the newly cut-away topics into a new hierarchy in the .cto outline.

As to the outline window in CT - I cannot close it. I hit the x and it
just pops up the save message; will not close. And I cannot open a new
outline - pops up the save message again. But, once I find what I'm
doing wrong with that, i

Not quite sure what you're trying to do. You should certainly be able to close the Outline pane altogether after saving whatever outline you have open.

t sounds as though you're saying I cannot have
more than one outline window open at once in CT. Hmm.

You can only have two (.cto) outlines open at a time: the Outline pane, and the Project Outline pane. I get around this restriction by exporting the outlines as OPML files and viewing them in Natara Bonsai instead.

Ok, that gets me to another requirement for my project: I want to have a
number of snippets open on the desktop, shuffle them around, stack them
up, snip and move text from one to another, gather them and slap them
all into an outline for further massaging. I'd prefer each window, each
snippet have outline capability, but can do without that if I can
manipulate snippets freely. (Gingko?)

CT might not be the most flexible or fastest tool for this. Have you checked whether you have MS OneNote installed? People sometimes don't realise it's installed as part of their MS Office suite.

Do any of the other apps you suggested (Zim, Wikidpad, TheBrain,
Piggydb, MS OneNote, myBase or UltraRecall) have good clean outline and
snippet manipulation capabilities?

I don't really use any of them. For rearranging lot of snippets into an outline I tend to use Outline 4D's (aka StoryView) outline view. For a free option you could try Noteliner.

Thanks much Steve & Dr. Andus.
My conclusions:
1. I'd better go ahead with CT, as it sounds just too capable not to give it an honest try.
2. I think l need to try combinations of apps, Dr. Andus style, until I find a system that works well for me, rather than seeking one great app that does it all.
3. I'll be checking in here (as well as at your own sites, Doc and Steve) regularly. Great forum here with many years of combined experience represented, and very helpful and sharing people. Any other resources/sites you can particularly recommend?
Andy

andyjim wrote:

Any other
resources/sites you can particularly recommend?
Andy

You're welcome, thanks for your kind words.

If you're serious about CT, I strongly recommend registering with the CT forum, as there are much more advanced users on there than I am.

Forgot to mention that CT v.6 (that is hopefully coming out soon) will let you view multiple snippets (as floating windows) on the screen, from where you can copy and paste to consolidate them in another edit window.

Also, within a CT topic, once you've added headings (or imported them from Word), a new feature should allow you to use CTRL+arrow to rearrange them from within the TOC pane.

Thanks, those upcoming features definitely seal the deal on going with CT, at least to start off my project. Seems like he's really working to put together the best of all worlds.

It is not my intention to lower CT's class and power again.

Just let me say that

"you have longer documents that you want to split into shorter snippets. If that is the case, you can do that very easily with CT. Dump the text into one topic (what CT calls a single document), then there is a command that will take selected text, cut it from the current topic, create a new topic, leaving behind a wiki link in the original topic. With this process you can cut a long topic into many small ones very quickly."

is exactly the functionality you can very easily bring into ANY outliner, by very simple macros (I do it this way in UR, more than easy), when on the other hand, some functionality is missing in many outliners (wysiwyg in CT) that even with elaborate macros, no user could ever put into his outliner.

So perhaps a kind request to developers in general: Concentrate on that part of development we users cannot add up to your software, on our own!