I own Ultra Recall, Zoot, WhizFolders, and MyInfo, and I have found them all useful for different kinds of tasks, depending on what kind of information structure I need. (I have yet to try OneNote.)

Right now I am trying to decide which program is most useful for collecting information on a kind of random basis (notes, web clippings, thoughts, ideas, etc.) and then giving it some kind of order later on as the collection of information grows larger. This tends to be information that I might use for creative writing such as materials and ideas for projects. (I'm not talking about day-to-day working information or record-keeping.)

So far I find Zoot the easiest program to throw information into without much idea of what I'll do with it, and then days, weeks, or months later do some sorting out. Essentially I'm concerned with developing an emergent structure from information from the bottom-up. Trying to create much of a top-down structure early in the process would be too restrictive for my purposes.

I'm curious what program others have found most useful for this sort of task.

Randall Shinn

In my experience, Ecco is best for that kind of thing, for two reasons.

First, it's a competent single pane outliner, which is often a pretty natural way of rearranging data. Its outliner also supports columns, which is handy when you want to add metadata or ancillary information.

Second, it allows you to create multiple, arbitrary views on your data (it calls these views "notepads") at any time. Not only that, but then you can filter those views, and turn filters on and off with a single mouse click.

Mix all that together, add in the special views, Gantt charts, and basic math on columns, and it's a great way to slice and dice information.

This process is nothing other than brainstorming, broadly construed and extended in time--the core function of a true outliner. To me, asking for the best program for your purpose tantamount to asking for the most powerful outliner.

I think it's BrainStorm. (And for those who conclude that the Mac has more advanced outlining than Windows, I would challenge someone to supply a Mac outliner more powerful than BrainStorm. Off course, we may disagree on identifying the core outliner functions.)

Randall Shinn wrote:

I own Ultra Recall, Zoot, WhizFolders, and MyInfo, and I have found them all useful for
different kinds of tasks, depending on what kind of information structure I need. (I
have yet to try OneNote.)

Right now I am trying to decide which program is most useful
for collecting information on a kind of random basis (notes, web clippings,
thoughts, ideas, etc.) and then giving it some kind of order later on as the collection
of information grows larger. This tends to be information that I might use for
creative writing such as materials and ideas for projects. (I'm not talking about
day-to-day working information or record-keeping.)

So far I find Zoot the easiest
program to throw information into without much idea of what I'll do with it, and then
days, weeks, or months later do some sorting out. Essentially I'm concerned with
developing an emergent structure from information from the bottom-up. Trying to
create much of a top-down structure early in the process would be too restrictive for
my purposes.

I'm curious what program others have found most useful for this sort of
task.

Randall Shinn

This is exactly where Zoot excels. While I agree with Stephen that Brainstorm is unsurpassed in many of its overall functioning as a brain storming application and for organizing thoughts, to me Zoot has it beat for the purpose of collecting random information and making sense of it later because Zoot allows meta-data and has powerful filtering through smart folders.

The good news is that Zoot and Brainstorm are very compatible products, since both use plain text and both have easy processes for importing and exporting material. I'd collect and organize the information in Zoot, then export it -- using Brainstorm's magic paste function -- to Brainstorm to mold it into a coherent narrative.

Steve Z.

To be sure, Brainstorm is a great program. It also has some similarities with outliners.

But is it an outliner? I don't think so. From their own Website: "Unlike outliners, there is no concept of headings and notes, all entries (apart from the overall Title) are equal. This makes grabbing information from external sources a breeze. BrainStorm provides a variety of methods, but the best is probably Magic paste." etc., etc.

At best, it's "a different kind of outliner." To say that it defines the core functions of an outliner is therefore a bit misleading.

Manfred

Thanks for the suggestions.

I own both Ecco and NoteMap, so I am familiar with single-pane outliners. I tend to agree with Steve Zeoli's thoughts to throw the information into Zoot, and then shape it into a narrative later.

I have tried Brainstorm in the past, but never seemed to get it's advantages over either Ecco or NoteMap. However, given the enthusiasm of its users, I just downloaded the latest version to give it another try. As Manfred pointed out, even Brainstorm's own site makes an effort to differentiate it from traditional outliners, so I will try digging deeper this time.

Randall Shinn

Brainstorm counts in my mind as an outliner, though it's more of a peephole outliner (or a two pane outliner without the second pane and with heavy use of clones).

Stephen, give Tinderbox on the Mac a look. It does what Brainstorm does, and substantially more. It also seems to be more actively developed than Brainstorm.

-- Chris

Stephen R. Diamond wrote:

This process is nothing other than brainstorming, broadly construed and extended in
time--the core function of a true outliner. To me, asking for the best program for your
purpose tantamount to asking for the most powerful outliner.

I think it's
BrainStorm. (And for those who conclude that the Mac has more advanced outlining than
Windows, I would challenge someone to supply a Mac outliner more powerful than
BrainStorm. Off course, we may disagree on identifying the core outliner
functions.)

Randall Shinn wrote:
>I own Ultra Recall, Zoot, WhizFolders, and
MyInfo, and I have found them all useful for
>different kinds of tasks, depending on
what kind of information structure I need. (I
>have yet to try OneNote.)
>
>Right
now I am trying to decide which program is most useful
>for collecting information on
a kind of random basis (notes, web clippings,
>thoughts, ideas, etc.) and then
giving it some kind of order later on as the collection
>of information grows larger.
This tends to be information that I might use for
>creative writing such as materials
and ideas for projects. (I'm not talking about
>day-to-day working information or
record-keeping.)
>
>So far I find Zoot the easiest
>program to throw information
into without much idea of what I'll do with it, and then
>days, weeks, or months later
do some sorting out. Essentially I'm concerned with
>developing an emergent
structure from information from the bottom-up. Trying to
>create much of a top-down
structure early in the process would be too restrictive for
>my purposes.
>
>I'm
curious what program others have found most useful for this sort of
>task.

>
>Randall Shinn

Like Stephen Zeoli, I can't think of anything better than Zoot.

Zoot can act as a general repository, and its items can immediately or later be classified into broad subject clumps. When it comes to developing a logical argument by way of a single-pane outliner, the Zoot folder tree can be used to mirror sections of the developing argument. At least this is the way I use it.

Once the beta testing is concluded, it looks as though Zoot32 will be able to work even more closely with image repositories (Web Research, Surfulater, etc) and with outlining and drafting programs like WhizFolders, MyInfo, ConnectedText, and so on that offer universal links to their contents.

All this is apart from Zoot's ability as a PIM, via sync-ing to Outlook. I think it is an amazing program, and it's the HQ for all my work.

Derek

I cannot think of a better application for this kind of emergent order than a hypertext system (with outline functionality superimposed on it).

I am thinking of ConnectedText, of course. It allows you to

1. Capture information from all kinds of different sources (Clipboard catcher), and
2. Store it in a powerful database
3. Link entries that seem related on the fly, and easily establish relationships
4. Categorize these entries by applying categories (which can be used like tags)
5. and, as a final step to, order the material in an outline

Just as Zoot, none of these steps alter the underlying information in any fundamental way, and the order is fluid and easily reversible. The outline is just a different view on the material (as are the categories and the links). But going through steps 3 to 5 do a lot to clarify the matter at hand, and when the database has become large enough, serendipity is almost guaranteed.

Manfred

Derek Cornish wrote:

Like Stephen Zeoli, I can't think of anything better than Zoot.

Zoot can act as a
general repository, and its items can immediately or later be classified into broad
subject clumps. When it comes to developing a logical argument by way of a single-pane
outliner, the Zoot folder tree can be used to mirror sections of the developing
argument. At least this is the way I use it.

Another vote for Zoot, with the James Fallows template (which may still be available on the Yahoo Groups Zoot site) explicitly providing the repository-plus-outlining cream topping on the rich Zoot cake.

On the Mac, I also back the suggestion of Tinderbox, which in Version 4 has overcome certain of the criticisms some have made in the past, and with which I am (slowly!) getting to grips. For incremental formalisation and organisation, it is an extraordinary tool (although at an extraordinary price).

The only major overall point I'd make (apart from expense) about Tinderbox is that it's not really a serious repository of anything except notes. For the perfect system, one would ideally team it with a data-store such as (in order of increasing sophistication) Yojimbo, Eaglefiler or DevonThink Pro. DevonThink would provide what I suppose is the ultimate - its own suggestions, via semantic analysis, of trends of emergent organisation in the data as it accumulated (assuming it contained enough data to accomplish this).

Hugh Pile wrote:

Another vote for Zoot, with the James Fallows template (which may still be
available on the Yahoo Groups Zoot site) explicitly providing the
repository-plus-outlining cream topping on the rich Zoot cake.

Yesterday I extracted into a Zoot database more than 50 tidbits of advice and comments that have been given to me about a theatrical project I need to revise. Today I started structuring that advice using the James Fallows template (thanks Hugh), and already certain difficult-to-make decisions about the project have begun to emerge as things that will have to be done. It is proving extremely helpful to have Zoot group chunks of advice into folders relative to the stage characters involved and the type of issues, and to be able to develop that folder structure as needed based on the contents of the individual items. Since many items relate to multiple characters and issues, Zoot's ability to place each item in every relevant folder is great. This is exactly the sort of emergent order I was concerned with handling.

Randall

Randall Shinn wrote:

... Today I started
structuring that advice using the James Fallows template (thanks Hugh), and already
certain difficult-to-make decisions about the project have begun to emerge as
things that will have to be done. It is proving extremely helpful to have Zoot group
chunks of advice into folders relative to the stage characters involved and the type
of issues, and to be able to develop that folder structure as needed based on the
contents of the individual items. Since many items relate to multiple characters and
issues, Zoot's ability to place each item in every relevant folder is great. This is
exactly the sort of emergent order I was concerned with handling.

Randall

This way to get to grips to a theme seems very interesting.

Please, would you like to tell more about the "James Fallows template" and where to find it
or give some links for further reading?

Thnak you very much in advance!

Bernhard wrote:

Please, would you like to tell more about the
"James Fallows template" and where to find it
or give some links for further
reading?

Thnak you very much in advance!

Go to http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ZootForum I think that it is a private group and you have to sign up. Go to the files, look for "Sample Databases" and download Article Organizer.zot. Also do a search in the forum threads for James Fallows: I recall he wrote about the template when he posted it.

I took another fairly brief look at Zoot. Correct me if I am wrong about its features and limitations.

While it seems facile in manipulating items, it seems remarkably lame about manipulating categories (for which it uses a folder metaphor). In fact, its ability to reorganize categories seems weaker than even the most inexpensive two-pane quasi-outliner. To subordinate one 'folder' to another, you select the folder choose a command to indent it. No subordination by drag and drop, even. Certainly no multiple-selection of categories.

This doesn't look to me like a medium for emergent structure. It doesn't readily allow you to tear down and rebuild higher level structures. It seems best for tasks where the basic structure is pre-ordained. It seems well-designed to organize information within known categories to facilitate the flow of work.

srd

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

This is exactly where Zoot excels. While I agree with Stephen that Brainstorm is
unsurpassed in many of its overall functioning as a brain storming application and
for organizing thoughts, to me Zoot has it beat for the purpose of collecting random
information and making sense of it later because Zoot allows meta-data and has
powerful filtering through smart folders.

The good news is that Zoot and
Brainstorm are very compatible products, since both use plain text and both have easy
processes for importing and exporting material. I'd collect and organize the
information in Zoot, then export it -- using Brainstorm's magic paste function -- to
Brainstorm to mold it into a coherent narrative.

Steve Z.

Probably my Mac skills had already atrophied when about a year ago I tried Tinderbox, which was loaded on a Mac at the local Mac store. Whether because of the program's limitation or mine, it appeared to me that the outliner was incredibly primitive, appearing *always* as if in Brainstorm's 'outline' view. (I think it used to be called "overview.") Lines unchangeably unwrapped, that is.

srd

Chris Thompson wrote:

Stephen, give Tinderbox on the Mac a look. It does what Brainstorm does,
and substantially more. It also seems to be more actively developed than
Brainstorm.

-- Chris

Hi Stephen

Probably my Mac skills had already atrophied when about a year ago I tried Tinderbox,
which was loaded on a Mac at the local Mac store. Whether because of the program's
limitation or mine, it appeared to me that the outliner was incredibly primitive,
appearing *always* as if in Brainstorm's 'outline' view. (I think it used to be called
"overview.") Lines unchangeably unwrapped, that is.

Tinderbox has a number of views: an outline view, a map view, a treemap view, an explorer view, a chart view (and export views). And you can have windows displaying different views at your data opened at the same time.

Franz

I think folder tree operations in Zoot can be seen as weak, seen from the point of view of simple interface interaction. However, the tree hierarchy itself is not really where emerging structure reveals itself in Zoot, at least not directly. The power is in filling folders (or collecting results) with items based on arbitrary combinations of criteria, in my opinion.

Chris

Stephen R. Diamond wrote:

While it seems facile in manipulating items, it seems remarkably
lame about manipulating categories (for which it uses a folder metaphor). In fact,
its ability to reorganize categories seems weaker than even the most inexpensive
two-pane quasi-outliner. To subordinate one 'folder' to another, you select the
folder choose a command to indent it. No subordination by drag and drop, even.
Certainly no multiple-selection of categories.

This doesn't look to me like a
medium for emergent structure. It doesn't readily allow you to tear down and rebuild
higher level structures. It seems best for tasks where the basic structure is
pre-ordained. It seems well-designed to organize information within known
categories to facilitate the flow of work.