http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-tools-for-outlining-ideas-for-writers-and-artists

for what it's worth - sometimes the idea of outlining gets attention from the tech websites

jimspoon wrote:

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-tools-for-outlining-ideas-for-writers-and-artists
for what it's worth - sometimes the idea of outlining gets attention
from the tech websites

Just like Steve, I'm also surprised when I see MS OneNote and Word discussed as serious choices for outliners, especially as there are even free outliners that are more capable than those two (I'm not talking about note-taking, for which maybe OneNote could be a contender).

Here is link to Steve's OneNote Smack Down, just in case:
http://welcometosherwood.wordpress.com/tag/onenote-smack-down/

jimspoon wrote:

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-tools-for-outlining-ideas-for-writers-and-artists
for what it's worth - sometimes the idea of outlining gets attention
from the tech websites

P.S. Thanks for the link though. Articles like these are interesting reminders of how disorganised this market for outliners is. People tend to have very fragmented views of what's available out there. And you can't blame them, as other than a couple of lists (Wikipedia and Pierre's list: http://www.editgrid.com/user/pplandry/List_of_Outliners there is not much else to go on...

I appreciate the link. It's always interesting to read other people's thoughts about what constitutes a good outliner. I have to disagree with the author of that post, however. With the exception of Work Flowy, I don't believe any of those would make my list of top outlining apps for Windows. And especially not for writers and artists. Oak Outliner might get there; although the developer, Jesse Grosjean, while very creative, seems to have a short attention span, starting one project, getting it just to the point of being useful, then moving on to another one. I had never heard of The Outliner for Giants before, so was eager to give it a shot. I was disappointed. It is clunky and not very inspiring. I can see it being useful for some purposes, especially where collaboration might be involved, but it is not an outliner for writers, at least not when there are other, better options.

I have to make this disclaimer: I have never used Word beyond the 2007 edition, so it may be a lot better at outlining than I recall... in fact, I believe I've read that it is. And I have not used the latest version of OneNote, so the outlining capability might have improved. And I do love OneNote for collecting related data on specific topics.

Everyone's ideas are different, so it is good to get points of view that differ from mine, so thanks for the link.

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I have to make this disclaimer: I have never used Word beyond the 2007
edition, so it may be a lot better at outlining than I recall... in
fact, I believe I've read that it is.

You're right, I also heard positive noises about Word 2013, which I haven't tried yet (I'm somewhat discouraged by their new licensing regime and Word 2010 still serves me fine for everything else).

I've tinkered with the latest version of Word and while most of it is an improvement, it seems the outliner hasn't been touched in ages.

At least, I didn't notice any real difference from Word 2007.

And yeah, that list kinda makes me sad. It consists of two desktop apps, one of which is not an outliner, despite what most tech sites seem to think and the rest of web apps.

I hate web apps. But sadly, it seems like that's the only place we'll ever see any development on outliners that will run on Windows.

Of them, The Outliner of Giants seems to be the most feature-rich and I wanted to like it, but as Steve said, it's pretty slow and clunky, plus it doesn't look very good.

Blah.

Have to say, I'm a little surprised by Dr. Andus/Steve's dismissal of OneNote as a serious outliner - this does suggest you haven't played with - or perhaps have forgotten - the powerful outlining features in OneNote, that enable you to (for example) keep multiple outlines on a single page, incorporate tables, embedded links/files etc. etc.

People do tend to forget that OneNote is not just an outliner by virtue of its file/folder/subfolder structure, but also because it can turn any piece of text on any part of a page into an outline. This function has not been emphasized in reviews (Microsoft themselves make very little mention of it), but it's actually extremely powerful and has not been deprecated (yes, I too have seen reviews that suggest this feature has been dumped, but as a matter of fact, it's very much alive and well - at least, it is in OneNote 2010. I don't know about the 2013 version...).

In many respects, OneNote is a vastly more powerful outliner than many "dedicated" tools. The trouble is, like most Microsoft software, it goes about what it does using a higgledy-piggledy, multi-method approach that looks increasingly old-fashioned next to modern apps with their streamlined user interfaces and single-method functions.

But then I have to say that as somebody who's tried and - alas - failed to get along with The Brain, I find the latter a good deal more confusing!

MadaboutDana wrote:

Have to say, I'm a little surprised by Dr. Andus/Steve's dismissal of
OneNote as a serious outliner - this does suggest you haven't played
with - or perhaps have forgotten - the powerful outlining features in
OneNote, that enable you to (for example) keep multiple outlines on a
single page, incorporate tables, embedded links/files etc. etc.

You're quite right, I haven't played all that much with it, to the extent that I'm not even sure what powerful outlining feature you're referring to. So it's possible that I'm missing the main point.

I can see that it can be fairly useful in organising material on a single page as an unlimited whiteboard, and using the file structure for further organisation. But when it comes to actually constructing an outline hierarchy within a text note, all I can see is the traditional bulleted list available. Am I missing something?

I was only referring to the inadequacy of the latter for outlining, as opposed to the functionalities of dedicated outliners that allow you to do a lot more with your list.

Ah, yes, I've no idea why they make no mention of this potent feature nowadays. The best way to experiment with it is to type a line on a OneNote page (as you know, you can type anywhere on the page, a la whiteboard). Then press 'Return' and then press 'Tab' (to indent the following line). Lo and behold, you'll find that pressing 'Tab' was enough to indent the entire paragraph - and if you press 'Return' again, the next paragraph will also be indented until you explicitly cancel the indent by pressing 'Backspace'.

So what? you will inquire. Ah, now if you mouse over the lines you have just typed, you will see a mystic box with a cross in it appear at the start of each line (like a kind of hide-and-seek bullet). If you go to the top of your hierarchy (for that is what you have just created), and double-click the box on the left of the topmost line, all the indented lines/paragraphs below it will vanish away! It is, in fact, an outline.

Useless! you will cry, because they're hidden! What's the use of hidden subitems? Aha! No, not so: if you look carefully, you will see the hidden bullet-y thing (box with a cross) has now materialised and isn't disappearing, even when you move your mouse away. A simple, visual indication that it is not just a line, it is an entire outline! If you unfold the outline again, the bullet-y thing disappears again.

Good, eh? And the best bit is, you can create any depth of outline - all paragraphs automatically treat their subparagraphs as outline subitems. Goodness knows why Microsoft treat this as such an unimportant trick. It's a really convenient feature, and makes OneNote one of the most powerful outliners around (not least because you can move entire outlines from one page to another, copy and paste them, create multiple outlines side by side, add tables to them (by pressing 'Tab' after a piece of text; OneNote's table function is enormously powerful and very easy to use), embed files in them, and - of course - search through them.

I hope that's helpful.

Cheers,
Bill

MadaboutDana wrote:

So what? you will inquire. Ah, now if you mouse over the lines you have
just typed, you will see a mystic box with a cross in it appear at the
start of each line (like a kind of hide-and-seek bullet). If you go to
the top of your hierarchy (for that is what you have just created), and
double-click the box on the left of the topmost line, all the indented
lines/paragraphs below it will vanish away! It is, in fact, an outline.

You got me there... I had no idea this feature existed!

OK, I admit - that makes OneNote more of an outliner that I thought it was, and in combination with the whiteboard etc. it's a neat feature.

But, I think Steve's original point in the OneNote smack down and my comment was more about whether OneNote is the best outliner out there (if you do a search for outliners in general, there are a number of articles that claim to say so, without even acknowledging that there is a whole world of dedicated outliners).

So I would still say that while OneNote is not bad at all for what it is, if we think of outlining strictly as developing and manipulating a textual list for the purposes of developing a piece of writing, there are more sophisticated solutions out there (just look at the toolbars of Natara Bonsai for all the different folding and zooming options).

I guess what irks me more is that those writers ignore the existence of this category or don't bother to research it. It's not so much about having a problem with OneNote itself, the unique strengths of which I can appreciate.

I have to back up Dr Andus on this. But first three points:

1. OneNote is a great application. I use it regularly.
2. I acknowledge that it has a competent outliner, one that may do things others do not.
3. I am certainly not saying that OneNote can't function as a great outliner. It just depends on what you're looking for in an outliner, I think.

But like Dr Andus, I think there are better options for dedicated outlining. One of my biggest peeves with OneNote in general, and one of the main reasons I don't use it for outlining, is that it does not support extended selection. Outlining is about the hashing out of ideas and the context of those ideas, which to me means editing what you've written as much as it means moving it around. Extended selection is crucial (again, to me, can't say for others) for making quick text edits.

Additionally, OneNote lacks a hoisting capability, which I think is important for focus when working in longer outlines.

I agree that the ability to embed a table within an outline is pretty cool -- although Noteliner also provides this capability, though implemented differently and a little more awkwardly.

Steve Z.