My working life has just been thrown into turmoil!

Having settled happily on eM Client as my Outlook equivalent (I loathe Outlook), albeit after flirting briefly with the latest EssentialPIM and its rather good - but also rather slow - mail client, I've just discovered the Todoist extension for Mozilla Thunderbird.

What a neat piece of software! You can drag e-mails out of Thunderbird's inbox(es) and drop them into the Todoist window, whereupon they automatically become tasks. Very simple, but also very efficient. Said tasks are then synchronised across all one's Todoist clients (mobile as well).

As people may remember, Todoist is one of the better outliner-style task managers around. I'm still waiting for their iPad-optimised client, but I know they're working away on it.

So now I have to decide whether I chuck in eM Client and go back to Thunderbird (which has also been streamlined since the last time I looked at it). Rats!

Turning emails into tasks is a feature I very much appreciate in many cloud-based task managers, which can d this from with Google (Apps) Mail. Having it on a desktop mail application seems wonderful.

However, I am not ready to go back to Thunderbird with which I've had a love-hate relationship in the past, especially after this http://www.zdnet.com/mozilla-scraps-thunderbird-development-email-client-not-a-priority-anymore-7000000469/

By the way, I've also settled with EM Client as my, well, email client of choice in Windows.

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

By the way, I've also settled with EM Client as my, well, email client
of choice in Windows.

Alexander,

Can you say more about EM Client? Is it stable and reliable? I may be looking for an alternative client to Outlook, and EM Client is one that I would like to consider, but some have reported that while they like the program, the current version is a bit buggy. Any input would be greatly appreciated, as would any alternate candidates for consideration.

Thanks,

--Ken

I've been using EM Client for a few months, and only as a complementary solution for working with Google Apps Mail when offline. I first read about it in Bits du Jour and chose to ignore it; I've seen many hopeful email clients from little known companies become abandonware and it's not very funny when you have a lot of material locked in them (as I do in Calypso/Courier from ages back). Then I read that it was taken under the wing of Softmaker Office which I like and own a license to, and decided to try it out.

Some background: I turned to EM Client rather reluctantly and only after having been disappointed by several other IMAP capable clients: in Thunderbird I have lost messages and Postbox simply crawled and froze when trying to handle my mailbox (40% of a 25 Gb mailbox is no laughing matter)*. I would have liked a cross-platform solution (I often work on a Linux notebook) but, again, found none I felt satisfied with. As for Outlook, I've never managed to like it, and I know from reviews and colleagues' experience that it doesn't work well with Google Mail, so I never really considered it an option. Prior to Thunderbird and Postbox which didn't last long with me, and before switching to Google Apps for our company mail, I used The Bat! for several years. Admittedly Google has done a good job of creating a web mail application whose strengths are difficult to reproduce in desktop clients--at least I have found none that satisfies me in this respect.

In this context, EM Client has --until now-- proved OK. It's fast; after the initial sync which might have taken a couple of days more, morning syncs happen very quickly. It's rather smart: it will start by syncing the most recent messages in the inbox and then move on to other folders. It does automatic backups even if it isn't running. It works well with various character sets. There may well be bugs, but I haven't seen them yet. If I used it more often I might have seen them. It took me quite a while to find Thunderbird's bugs and when I did I wasn't happy.

Not sure if my experience helps. Once again, there's few replacements for trying something one's self. By the way, have you tried Daisho? http://www.daisho-blacksmith.com/en/software.html It's also a German product and seemed to me quite well designed; unfortunately I found its IMAP capabilities rather limited.

*Yes, I know it's a lot of mail. Part of the reason for wanting a desktop client is to clean up messages with huge attachments. Unbelievably, Google Mail cannot sort messages by size; the only way I have found is to sync the full mailbox in and offline reader and then use its own filters / sorting fields.

Very helpful information, Alexander. Thank you for taking the time to write a thoughtful reply. It is much appreciated.

--Ken

Ken, you are most welcome. By the way, this thread made me think back to the various clients I had tested some time ago. One of these was Zimbra http://www.zimbra.com which I considered as a multi-platform solution. I believe that when I tested it it was in version 6 and I found it rather weak. It is now in version 8, under VMware's wing--which makes me feel rather safer--and seems to have been revamped significantly. I have just installed it and will be testing it on my Linux notebook. I will report back my findings. I expect that if it works well in Linux, its Windows version should do too.

To be clear: the fact that I'm at present satisfied with EM Client in Windows, on no accounts means that I will stop trying out other programs--nor even that my present choice is well founded. And, an important advantage of a big IMAP mailbox is that I can change clients and the mailbox itself will take care of the migration. It's not as if I need to restore backups from one mail client to another--though I've read that EM Client is actually good at this.

We're in a similar position. We've used Outlook before, but the entire company loathed it, so we moved to other systems for a while (first FirstClass, which was quite cool until OpenText managed to destroy it), then DeskNow (which was also quite cool - entirely web-based, but very fast - until the Australian company who produced it went under). So when I found eM Client as part of the SoftMaker Office Pro bundle, I tried it out. And now we all use it, because actually it's fast, friendly and much simpler to use than Outlook, despite having most of the same features (which you can switch off if you don't use).

We've not had any probs with instability. It takes a little while to wind up its rubberbands when you first launch it, but that's because it's an IMAP-focused client. Once it's going, it's very quick and reliable. It also has that most pleasant of things, the ability to control exactly which folders you see/don't see, plus a collective inbox ("Smart Folder" - you can have various different kinds) which shows you incoming e-mail from all accounts. The search function is pretty good, too. Plus it registered all incoming e-mail addresses, which saves a considerable amount of time.

The latest version is somewhat reminiscent of iOS's e-mail client. We really like it, and a couple of computer-phobic colleagues are very enthusiastic users. To replace all the groupware stuff we used FirstClass (and DeskNow) for, we now use Kerio Workspace (which has unfortunately been discontinued and replaced by Kerio's online offering SamePage, but hey). Another option for those interested in powerful collaborative environments is Atlassian's Confluence, which can be obtained for just $10 if your org has 10 users or less. The latest version has some sensational features.

Thankfully, my needs are more simple than yours. I have a number of older web-based accounts that I would like to close, but need to pull down all of the old messages, hopefully in the same folder structure that they are currently residing in (and which is quite simple). I might use Outlook because I have a license, but what I am still trying to lear is how the different clients store their messages. I know that Outlook uses a .PST file, but am not sure what other formats are common (in case a company goes under in the future).

Thanks,

--Ken

Outlook differs from most other mail clients there. The most convenient/universal format is .eml, supported by most mail clients and readable by a wide range of document viewers, which treats each e-mail as a separate file. This means you can download your mail files directly into a folder, then ask Windows Search (or any other search engine) to index them, whereupon they become available to you like any other file.

A client that does this very well, because it actually allows you to use your folder system as the mail repository, is the unusual EverDesk (www.everdesk.com). Unfortunately they seem to have done away with the freebie version, which is a shame, because it sounds as if it would do perfectly for you.

The other option is to do what we've done, which is use a third-party mail archiving tool to store and archive your e-mails. The advantage is, this works completely independently of your ISP: the tool downloads e-mails, indexes and stores them on your local drive, where they are then searchable. By far the best tool I've found is MailStore, a German product, which is available both as a server version (which we use) and a free home version (MailStore Home), which I use on my home machines. It's very efficient, indexes very thoroughly, and searches very fast. And best of all, allows you to export mails (or back 'em up elsewhere) as you like - so no nasty proprietary lock-in. You can also restore IMAP accounts in their entirety, if you should wish to do so.

Bill,

Thanks for the additional recommendations. Now, I just need to figure out which program I need for pulling down all the mail from the web host, and which one will allow me to read and search these messages. For some reason, mail clients, like database software, seems like they are a world unto themselves. I deal with many other types of software without much problem, but working with mail client software always requires a longer learning curve. I guess that is why I have not undertaken this project in years past, and just renewed my annual subscription on these accounts. Hopefully this year will be different. I am trying to reduce/consolidate my "footprint" on the web. Too much maintenance, and too many people I know seems to be getting hacked in accounts they no longer use. Why expose myself if the accounts are no longer needed?

--Ken

Hi Ken - yes, you're right, mail seems to have become very complicated over the last few years.

But actually, the basic concepts are very simple. They boil down to:
- do you want to store and manage all your mail locally (i.e. on your hard drive) or
- do you want to store and manage your mail remotely (i.e. on your ISP's server)?

There are pros and cons to each approach (you knew I was going to say that!).

The pros of local storage:
- you've got total control of your e-mail
- it's always with you
- you can store it anywhere you want, depending on how flexible your mail client is
- you can index and search it at your leisure

The cons of local storage:
- if your hard drive melts down, and you haven't taken backups, you're b*ggered (to use a highly technical term)
- mail can take up huge amounts of space on your hard drive
- mail downloads/uploads can take up huge amounts of your (limited) bandwidth

The pros of remote storage:
- your ISP's server is probably backed up anyway (multiple times if you're with a big ISP with a proper server setup)
- your mail is only downloaded when you want it (so it doesn't take up much bandwidth until you actually collect a message)
- your mail sits on your ISP's server, taking up their hard drive space (rather than yours)
- you can structure your mail into folders, which can (although that doesn't equate to "does") make it easier to manage

The cons of remote storage:
- you need more or less permanent online access to your e-mail (i.e. no broadband breakdowns)
- if your ISP's server melts down, you may lose all your e-mail

Now. How do you decide what you want, and once you've decided, what do you get? That's a whole different ballgame, and will require a longer answer!

Hi Bill,

Thank you for the additional information. I am up against a deadline to get this issue resolved, and due to health issues, am moving much slower than I would like. In this particular case, I will be closing out these accounts, so all of the mail needs to be downloaded and living on my hard drive (and its backups). Now, I need to determine which program to use to pull down the messages, and which program to allow me to search through these messages. As the accounts will be closed, I am not certain how important it will be for me to be able to send/forward these messages. I am hoping to have a few minutes some time this week to resolve my selection process.

Thanks again for your help,

--Ken

Okay, in that case the answer is simple: MailStore Home, available from:

http://www.mailstore.com/en/mailstore-home.aspx

This will allow you to download mail from all your accounts, including those you are closing. It also automatically indexes all the e-mail it downloads, so you can search through it fast and easily. It's the best e-mail archiver on the planet, IMHO.

The good news is, regardless of what you decide to do with your e-mail accounts, MailStore is flexible. It can even restore an entire IMAP account to another server! Or export e-mail in a variety of formats. In this sense it is entirely open and won't restrict or hobble your access to your e-mail in any way.

I'm really sorry to hear about the ill-health, and hope a general streamlining will make things (much) easier.

Best wishes,
Bill

Oh, and in case I didn't mention before: MailStore Home (despite its sophistication) is free.

Very best wishes,
Bill

Thanks for the additional recommendations and the well wishes. I am slowly recovering from my some of my medical treatments, but my prognosis is supposed to be very good.

I took a look at their web site, and it looks like a good product. And the fact that it is free certainly helps. Now, I need to figure out if it can honor the folders that I created on the web mail account, and if I should download in IMAP or POP3. I keep hearing of people having problems with past messages when using POP3. They complain that the messages do not download, and that the server then deletes them before they can be accessed again. I am not sure of the downside of using IMAP if I plan on closing out the web account, and I do not plan on these messages being available anywhere else but my home PC.

Thanks,

--Ken

Ken wrote:

Now, I need to figure out if
it can honor the folders that I created on the web mail account, and if
I should download in IMAP or POP3.

For a one-off job my suggestion would be POP3. If you choose IMAP, you should be careful in the setup so that nothing gets deleted locally when the online account is closed down. That said, I have had this problem with a normal mail client; with an archiving program there is probably no such issue.

I keep hearing of people having
problems with past messages when using POP3. They complain that the
messages do not download, and that the server then deletes them before
they can be accessed again.

This depends on the online account features. In Gmail, you can specify whether you want POP to be available even for messages already downloaded, as well as to keep the Gmail copies of messages anyway. I have found this quite convenient for maintaining offline copies of unused accounts. I have not tried Yahoo, Hotmail or others though, so their options may be more limited.

I am not sure of the downside of using IMAP
if I plan on closing out the web account, and I do not plan on these
messages being available anywhere else but my home PC.

As long as you can 'break' the sync with the server while keeping the local messages (which an archiving program should allow; see above) you could then just log in to the online account and delete everything.

My best wishes for recovery as well.

If you use IMAP, MailStore will precisely duplicate your IMAP folder setup on the server. We only use IMAP accounts, and all the folders are precisely mapped on the MailStore system. So what you've got on your MailStore system (locally, on your hard drive) is precisely the same as what you see remotely, via your mail client, on your ISP's server.

MailStore then indexes all e-mails (as it's downloading them) so you can perform either simple searches (straight single-term searches), or "advanced searches" using e.g. Boolean syntax, time/user/location parameters and so on.

My own experience of POP3 is that it's less wieldy and flexible than IMAP - if you want to make quite sure you grab everything that's on your ISP's server, use IMAP. And don't worry about MailStore losing stuff - it doesn't synchronise (it's not a mail client), it backs up. So if you delete your entire mail account on the remote server, provided you've backed it up in MailStore, it'll still all be there sitting on your hard drive, nicely indexed and ready for searching! Please note that (last time I looked), MailStore Home backups have to be performed manually. But MailStore products are developed steadily, so that may have changed. The MailStore Server solution (costing ca. £250) archives automatically at set intervals.

MailStore - even the free Home version - is designed to meet corporate archiving requirements, which means ALL e-mail must be archived in a read-only form (although actually, MailStore is more flexible than that). So once MailStore has grabbed it, it's safe. You can even restore your mail accounts to another server, if you really want to!

I hope that's reassuring!

MadaboutDana wrote:

I hope that's reassuring!

Hi Bill,

Very reassuring, and very much appreciated. It seems like I should just skip a mail client and go directly to MailStore. At this time, I really do not plan on sending these messages back out, so an archive seems to make the most sense. I really appreciate you going the extra mile with answering all of my questions. Time is an even more precious commodity since I am not firing on all cylinders, and your assistance and recommendations are extremely helpful.

A most sincere thanks,

--Ken

Hi Bill,

I downloaded MailStore-Home today. Boy, that was easy! Thanks again for the recommendation.

--Ken

Yeah! Good, innit?!

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

I've been using EM Client for a few months, and only as a complementary
solution for working with Google Apps Mail when offline. I first read
about it in Bits du Jour and chose to ignore it; I've seen many hopeful
email clients from little known companies become abandonware and it's
not very funny when you have a lot of material locked in them (as I do
in Calypso/Courier from ages back). Then I read that it was taken under
the wing of Softmaker Office which I like and own a license to, and
decided to try it out.

Update: Thunderbird in SoftMaker Office 2016 for Windows
"The upcoming SoftMaker Office 2016 for Windows will no longer ship with the e-mail program eM Client, but with versions of Thunderbird and Lightning that have been enhanced by SoftMaker. In this article, we explain the motivation behind this change."
http://www.softmaker.com/english/ofwtb_en.htm

Yup, received that Email notice from Softmaker too. I've used their other products.

As an FYI to others: Chaos Software's Intellect also does the "drag and drop" task, appointment, and link to multiple contacts
http://www.chaossoftware.com/intellect.aspx

Steve