I guess that many people who love to see their stuff in a hierarchy order (as I am!), seems to be perfectionist guys, that can't feel in complete peace, while the things they see are not in its correct branch.

There is some psycological thing behind this outlining point of view. I think it's obvious. But i don't see clear if this can be for good or bad to our brain. Some people say that an outline is just an artificial structure, which doesn't allow us to see the rather caotic nature of life. Other people stands for a strict hierarchy of the knowledge, thanks to which we can build relationships.

Apart of that discussion, I wonder how much the use of outliners are setting up our way of thinking, and I'm curious if most of outline lovers do have in commun a kind of task oriented character.

By the way... Don't you think that this forum could be greater if the posts were published in an outline mode? ;)

Personally, as I've said before, I never used a physical outline to organize my thoughts or writing. However, when GrandView appeared, I immediately started using it for almost everything--not to organize my thoughts, but for its ability to easily rearrange paragraphs in my drafts, and to organize information, such as favorite quotes by subject.

I use two-pane PIMs to organize information: Using a book metaphor, I consider the left pane a table of contents and the search function an index

My experience is similar to yours, Cassius. I had no interest in outlines prior to GrandView. To me they were just drudge work assigned by teachers. But with GrandView, I learned how useful an outline can be for all kinds of work, from brainstorming a project to organizing a day. GrandView was so versatile, that it wasn't after I was no longer able to use it that I again became less reliant on outlines, learning they can be too rigid for some tasks.

One thing I never did with GrandView, though it was capable of handling it, is as an information capture and organizing app. I guess info wasn't so readily available back then in the pre-email, pre-Internet days. I had less need for organizing those things. I've come to see that outlines are limiting for this kind of mass data storage. It's nice when you can arrange such info into an outline to get a grasp on the structure of a sub-set of data, but for overall cataloging and organizing, I find the outline becomes too overwhelmed.

Alex, while your initial assertion (which I assumed you did not want us to take totally seriously) that outlining people probably have a slightly warped brain, I think the truth is that everyone who tackles problems with outlines does so with a unique set of needs and desired outcomes. So that for some people it is a matter of an obsession with order, but with others it is with a need to bring temporary order from the chaos of their own lives (often the case with me). With others it is just the only way to make sense of information. And with others it is a matter of sifting through the data to find a unique perspective. Etc...

That's why this forum is so enjoyable: Not because we are all the same, but because we are all different.

Steve Z.

Two points. First, I think that outlining is a very big category, and within that there are quite different thought processes accommodated (from note-taking, brainstorming, organising, analysing, synthesising, outlining, writing, reverse outlining etc.), so it is difficult to generalise about it. This is why we have so many different products in this category (single-, dual,- three-pane outliners, mind mappers, concept mappers, wikis etc.).

Second, I do believe there are some people more predisposed towards categorising-type thought processes than others. It can become pathological both ways, i.e. you can become obsessively organising or pathologically disorganised (the latter may still try to become desperately organised but can't handle the mental and/or manual task of categorising).

It doesn't mean the latter can't be successful (or that the former always are), it's just that they better suit some professions than others. I've known some artists in the latter group, who are hopelessly disorganised, can't put things in boxes, can't organise files in folders, but still can produce something beautiful out of total chaos and manage to pull off complex projects (exhibitions). Perhaps the extreme cases in the former group become obsessive stamp collectors or work as accountants :)

These are just my observations based on anecdotal evidence, not based on any rigorous research.

Of course I'm not really serious when I talk about "outlined" mind, it is just a thought that came to me when I was talking to some friends about how the things we use leave their trace in the way we think. Scientifics say that even language some how sets up our perception of the world. Not so that it can determinate our thinking, but an important influencial factor (bty, sorry for my bad English, I hope I'm not so confusing).

I agree that we can't generalize on "outlining" concept, nor on the personality of outliners users. Nevertheless if one feels better when he write down his thoughts in a hierarchal manner, and like to work with outlining tools, then I think he's using preferentially his left side brain, I mean the logical side. Maybe that's why some people rather use mind maps (vs outlines).

I'm not psycologist, I just wonder if outlining tools help us to develop our logical skills, but they are too an obstacle to our creative skills. I guess all depends on how much we use them and when we use them.

I confess that since I begun to use BrainForest for Palm, and then Natara Bonsai, I can't imagine my work and my personal notes without a tool like those. And yes, I'm a very logical-thinking guy, though my friends take me as a specially creative. I don't like mind maps. I don't know if I should try them so it can help me to develop more the creative side of the brain. What do you think?...

Alex wrote:

I don't like mind maps. I don't
know if I should try them so it can help me to develop more the creative
side of the brain. What do you think?...

I don't see a big distinction between outliners and mind mappers (at least the way I use them). I use Freeplane and it just seems to be an airier (roomier) way of constructing an outline.

The bigger difference for me is between outliners/mind mappers and concept mappers (like VUE). But I find that even concept mapping is all about logic. For a really artistic non-hierarchical person probably even concept-mappers would seem restrictive...

Dr Andus wrote:

I don't see a big distinction between outliners and mind mappers (at
least the way I use them). I use Freeplane and it just seems to be an
airier (roomier) way of constructing an outline.

I would agree that there are a lot of similarities between mind mappers and outliners, but there is one significant distinction, I think. That is, in an outline there is an implication of rank. That is, that the order of the list represents some kind of structural order. While that is not always the case, it often is. For example, if you were creating a to do list with an outline, you wouldn't feel any need to say that item A was to precede item B, which in turns precedes item C as a step in the process. If you do this same exercise with a mind map, you might feel compelled to make this ordering clear with a number. (This may be less necessary with different types of diagrams in which there is an implied order. Strictly speaking, a true mind map eschews this kind of order.)

Does the fact I feel the need to make this distinction prove Alex's original thesis?

Steve Z.

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I would agree that there are a lot of similarities between mind mappers
and outliners, but there is one significant distinction, I think. That
is, in an outline there is an implication of rank. That is, that the
order of the list represents some kind of structural order. While that
is not always the case, it often is. For example, if you were creating a
to do list with an outline, you wouldn't feel any need to say that item
A was to precede item B, which in turns precedes item C as a step in the
process. If you do this same exercise with a mind map, you might feel
compelled to make this ordering clear with a number. (This may be less
necessary with different types of diagrams in which there is an implied
order. Strictly speaking, a true mind map eschews this kind of order.)

I see your point, which is why I used the proviso "at least the way I use them." I think I must have trained my mind to see a mind map as an outline, partly because I make sure the nodes are only displayed on the right of the main node (to mimic an outline), and then there is also the easy option in Freeplane to switch to "outline view" and then back to mind map view.

So personally I do perceive the hierarchical order going from left to right and then down (just like an outline). But I don't use it as a to-do list, only for outlining or reverse outlining.

Lately I've been doing a lot of professional speaking, and find that I much prefer mind maps to outlines. Probably that's because it's easier to keep yourself oriented with a glance -- the spacial cues are quicker to decode.I also find that mindmaps are easier to brainstorm with -- freer (I liked the comment about them being "airier"). I'm less worried about hierarchy at the beginning.

For writing, though, nothing beats the outliner for making sense of things, checking proportion, flow, structure.

Interesting thread; not sure whether it can lead to any conclusions, but here's my 2c:

Like Cassius and Steve, I had never used outlines prior to encountering them in software form (when I did, I was enamoured). However, for as long as I remember myself, I've been looking for 'my own' ways of organising things, e.g. during high school, in my agenda I didn't keep my contacts in one single alphabetical list, but on different sections depending on where I knew a person from, and only with their first names. So there would be a John from French lessons and another John from my school, and it would be obvious to me who was who. I guess that was a primitive filtering system.

In my first proper job I worked a lot with flat file and relational databases (FileExpress and Paradox 4.5 for DOS; those were the days); they were very useful for direct marketing, but I realised quite soon that they were not much help in making sense of things--at least not in the way I wanted to make sense of things. I've loathed classic database entry forms ever since; talk about losing the forest for the trees. It was around that time (mid '90s) that I encountered Idealist--unfortunately it did not work with Greek which at the time was my main working language. In fact I found that a large part of such innovative software was severely crippled in terms of non-Western (or even non-English) language handling. How ironic that now, in the days of Unicode and full compatibility, I work mostly in English.

But I digress. A third example of my 'misfitting' in respect to the way that 'normal' people organise information-centred work is from today: while working with a colleague on a complex proposal in MS Word 10 I had its wonderful navigation pane open on the left. Well, she asked me to close it because 'it was getting in the way'. Sigh; now that Microsoft got it right, I hope that it won't kill the feature because mainstream users ignore it. .

What I'm about to write is blindingly obvious, but for some reason had never bubbled up into my awareness until something in Alexander's post triggered it, which is this:

The difference between an outline that has been hand-written or typed and an outline created in outlining software is the difference between having a picture of a hammer and having an actual hammer for getting work done. A hand-written outline, like the kind we created in school long ago, is a relic the minute you put pencil to paper. You can't change it -- not without starting over -- so it only represents what it was at the moment you finished it, not what might be. (And, yes, you can erase, and cross out, write small for inserting and use arrows to show where a new idea fits, but then you're losing the one thing a static outline is really good for, and that is clarity.)

An outline created in even the most crude outlining software is dynamic. At least if you want it to be. You can promote and demote until you are content. Need to add sub-topics to an item, no problem. Try doing that with a hand-written outline. Grow it, collapse it. Focus in on one branch (okay, you're getting beyond the capability of a simple outliner now).

Anyway, it is no wonder we held outlining in contempt before software made it an ongoing process in which we could become genuinely engaged.

Steve Z.

Yes, it's the difference between writing with pen and paper or on a typewriter, and using a word processor. Correcting an oil painting, and working in contemporary drawing software. Planning the annual company budget on paper, and using Excel. Composing on a sheet and using a modern music notation program--not to mention the full virtual orchestra you can hook to it.

In theory it's just an issue of convenience and speed. Yet from a scale onwards, these factors make all the difference in the world: I once read that if a young couple ever tried to make the necessary calculations to create the Mandelbrot set (probably the most famous fractal shape there is, based on a quite simple mathematical function) by hand, it would be several generations before it would be finished.

So a software outliner is not just a faster, more convenient way of doing outlines; it represents the reason you'd want to do them in the first place.

As obvious as it may have been, I also didn't consider it within the context of this thread. Yet it is indeed very relevant.

I use both mind mapping and outlining. I use mind mapping to take notes during coaching calls with clients. I find it is the fastest way to take notes and the visual aspect of it lets me quickly go from topic to topic. I also use it for short training sessions.

I use outlining to plan my courses, ebooks and presentations as it is a great way to plan out the linear steps to developing the course modules.

Both have their place in my toolbox. I use Xmind for mind maps and Noteliner for outling.

As I've written here before, I used to work in a business where outlining was essential. I worked in current affairs TV. This required our films (half an hour or more in length) to be timely, and therefore often prepared at short notice - frequently in less than a week. We ourselves put a premium on clarity, believing that the issues surrounding even technically complicated subjects in science, economics, social affairs, crime, politics and international relations can be made understandable for ordinary viewers without being distorted - indeed, they must be made understandable if democracy is to have meaning.

The drive to clarity required numerous script re-drafts. To accommodate the re-drafts in the time available - alongside researching, filming and editing - the only resort for the early drafts (apart from sleepless nights, relay-writing and secretarial assistance) was outlining, with each "node" necessarily very precisely expressed in order to communicate the intended meaning of each stage of the final script.

Sometimes writing briefly takes nearly as long as writing fully. But at least the outline told you quickly whether you had anything to say that was worth saying, and whether you truly understood it.

Garland Coulson wrote:

I use mind mapping to take notes
during coaching calls with clients. I find it is the fastest way to take
notes and the visual aspect of it lets me quickly go from topic to
topic. I also use it for short training sessions.

Recently I have also switched to taking reading notes in mind map format, either in iThoughtsHD on my iPad or in Freeplane on the PC. It's easier to see both the notes and the overall logical structure of the reading.

Then the .mm or .opml file can be imported into an outliner for further processing (usually Natara Bonsai).

The current psychological jargon for right- and left-hemisphere is far- and near-mode. I've concluded that the important factor determining which mode outlining uses is whether the hierarchy is built by abstraction (far-mode) or logical entailment (near-mode). I think mindmapping software tends to encourage abstraction-level outlining, and that's the reason it lends more support for far-mode (right-hemispheric) thinking.

I'm thinking here about preliminary outlining for writing; I haven't tried to analyze approaches to, say, task management. The blog entry where is discuss this: "Self-inducing far-mode: Approaches to preliminary outlining" — http://tinyurl.com/62zwpr2 .

By the way, if you're interested in the resurgence of thinking about lateralization, the book "The master and his emissary" is excellent" in its first half.

Alex wrote:

Of course I'm not really serious when I talk about "outlined" mind, it
is just a thought that came to me when I was talking to some friends
about how the things we use leave their trace in the way we think.
Scientifics say that even language some how sets up our perception of
the world. Not so that it can determinate our thinking, but an important
influencial factor (bty, sorry for my bad English, I hope I'm not so
confusing).

I agree that we can't generalize on "outlining" concept, nor on the
personality of outliners users. Nevertheless if one feels better when he
write down his thoughts in a hierarchal manner, and like to work with
outlining tools, then I think he's using preferentially his left side
brain, I mean the logical side. Maybe that's why some people rather use
mind maps (vs outlines).

I'm not psycologist, I just wonder if outlining tools help us to develop
our logical skills, but they are too an obstacle to our creative skills.
I guess all depends on how much we use them and when we use them.

I confess that since I begun to use BrainForest for Palm, and then
Natara Bonsai, I can't imagine my work and my personal notes without a
tool like those. And yes, I'm a very logical-thinking guy, though my
friends take me as a specially creative. I don't like mind maps. I don't
know if I should try them so it can help me to develop more the creative
side of the brain. What do you think?...

First - Outlining with pencil and paper:
I believe the real/original reason for encouraging outlining with pencil and paper was to help/encourage/pressure students to learn to think in an organized, logical manner. Of course, there probably were some teachers who didn't realize this. I can remember that in high school, some teachers would read essays, etc. that students had written. Some were far worse than stream-of-consciousness, they indicated that the author had a totally chaotic thought process.

(There seems to be a fair bit of stream of consciousness in Taleb's "Antifragile." He admits as much! He also displays his erudition to the extent that the book is at least three times long as it need be.)

Second - Mind Mapping and brainstorming:
About the only diagrams I ever created for myself were Venn Diagrams, org. charts, and the layout created by Cantor for demonstrating that the cardinality (infinity value of Aleph-0) of the set of rational numbers is the same as that of the natural numbers. (I.e., the sets are of the same infinite size.)

However, I have created diagrams for others, as it seems that most people think visually when dealing with a process.

I don't know if the way I think is the result of "nature or nurture," no doubt both. As a young boy, my mother drilled into me, "Think for yourself, don't just go along with the others." As a result, I take very few things for granted and tend to look for alternatives to the "accepted." Perhaps this is a form of internalized brainstorming. It has stood me in good stead.
Thanks Mom!!!

-c

To avoid a false unanimity, I'll admit I loved outlining in school. Locating propositions in a hierarchy produced a sublime thrill comparable to ... diagramming sentences. Of course, doing it on a computer is much better. When I got my first copy of MS Word (3 I believe), I was thrilled to have an outliner built in. Does anyone remember the Mac software called MindWrite, built around an outliner. Very exciting, but it was an unfinished product, which didn't even have automatic page numbering, not to speak of footnotes.