Searching without hope of finding, and holding on for dear life.
Started by jamesofford
on 8/5/2007
jamesofford
8/5/2007 4:02 am
Fellow Outliners:
Like many of you I have been searching for some time for a piece of software that will help me to organize all of the information that I have flying at me. And like many of you I have been frustrated. I have used Zoot, UltraRecall, Onenote, a few other different outliner programs, Ecco, and Omea Pro. None of them quite did what I wanted. Zoot comes closest, but I need to be able to store graphics, and the text based nature of Zoot precludes that.
I have been envious of the choices on the Mac side for some time now, and am about to make the jump. I figure this will give me the ability to try out a set of software that seems to at least come close to my needs. Things like Devonthink, Yojimbo, Tinderbox and others hopefully will allow me to do what I would like. Also, as a scientist I spend a lot of time with papers downloaded from various journals. These are all PDF files. The Mac also has Papers, a program that promises to help me organize the multitude of PDF files on my hard drive.
And given Parallels, I can also keep the stuff that works on the PC side. Mostly Onenote.
Anyone who has experience with PIM software on the Mac side? How does the stuff really compare with what we have on the PC side?
Like many of you I have been searching for some time for a piece of software that will help me to organize all of the information that I have flying at me. And like many of you I have been frustrated. I have used Zoot, UltraRecall, Onenote, a few other different outliner programs, Ecco, and Omea Pro. None of them quite did what I wanted. Zoot comes closest, but I need to be able to store graphics, and the text based nature of Zoot precludes that.
I have been envious of the choices on the Mac side for some time now, and am about to make the jump. I figure this will give me the ability to try out a set of software that seems to at least come close to my needs. Things like Devonthink, Yojimbo, Tinderbox and others hopefully will allow me to do what I would like. Also, as a scientist I spend a lot of time with papers downloaded from various journals. These are all PDF files. The Mac also has Papers, a program that promises to help me organize the multitude of PDF files on my hard drive.
And given Parallels, I can also keep the stuff that works on the PC side. Mostly Onenote.
Anyone who has experience with PIM software on the Mac side? How does the stuff really compare with what we have on the PC side?
David Dunham
8/5/2007 4:37 am
I think almost all the Mac products will allow you to store graphics mixed with text (my own Opal certainly does).
Are you needing a single pane outliner (my preference) or one with two or three panes?
Are you needing a single pane outliner (my preference) or one with two or three panes?
Cassius
8/5/2007 6:49 am
Jim,
You might look at MyBase+WebCollect (www.wjjsoft.com) and Web Research (www.macropool.com). You can find a topic discussing these in this forum a week or two ago.
Both save Web pages and have PIM features. WR saves more pages correctly than does MB+WC, but I've found a partial work-around for most problem pages.
MB+WC has extensive RTF capabilities and can save graphs, and equations from WORD, MathType, and probably other formats. WR probably can as well, but my trial period has run out, so I can't check.
MB+WC costs more than WR, but includes indexed search. I think WR can do indexed search with an add-in. MB+WC can also save other file formats (eg., PDF) as attachments and open them in the appropriate programs (e.g., Adobe). It also has some linking ability. You can open more than one file at the same time in MB+WR, but the screen can get crowded unless you hide some windows (just like you do in MS Windows). Also, you can open two separate instances of MB by opening two MB files separately from Windows (by double-clicking on each file's name).
There are some days when MB seems to crash a lot, but that may be because I got carried away in editing a saved Web page. However you can set it to autosave frequently. (I've set it to autosave every 2 minutes and I think the minimum is 1 minute.) It can also automatically make dated backups.
Did I mention that it can link to external files? Also, it saves its files in Zip format with a compression level of your choice.
Hope this helps.
-cassius
You might look at MyBase+WebCollect (www.wjjsoft.com) and Web Research (www.macropool.com). You can find a topic discussing these in this forum a week or two ago.
Both save Web pages and have PIM features. WR saves more pages correctly than does MB+WC, but I've found a partial work-around for most problem pages.
MB+WC has extensive RTF capabilities and can save graphs, and equations from WORD, MathType, and probably other formats. WR probably can as well, but my trial period has run out, so I can't check.
MB+WC costs more than WR, but includes indexed search. I think WR can do indexed search with an add-in. MB+WC can also save other file formats (eg., PDF) as attachments and open them in the appropriate programs (e.g., Adobe). It also has some linking ability. You can open more than one file at the same time in MB+WR, but the screen can get crowded unless you hide some windows (just like you do in MS Windows). Also, you can open two separate instances of MB by opening two MB files separately from Windows (by double-clicking on each file's name).
There are some days when MB seems to crash a lot, but that may be because I got carried away in editing a saved Web page. However you can set it to autosave frequently. (I've set it to autosave every 2 minutes and I think the minimum is 1 minute.) It can also automatically make dated backups.
Did I mention that it can link to external files? Also, it saves its files in Zip format with a compression level of your choice.
Hope this helps.
-cassius
Cassius
8/5/2007 6:53 am
Jim,
Here's a P.S.
If you're happy with UltraRecall except for it lacking Zootish features, you might try Dominik's recent suggestion:
"I found a little workaround to simulate the smart folders from Zoot in UR: Instead of creating a folder I am inserting a Search Item. Then I add the query (or rule) and save it. Then I mark the “Automatically start saved search when search item selected” in Tools -> Options -> Search/Reminders."
-c
Here's a P.S.
If you're happy with UltraRecall except for it lacking Zootish features, you might try Dominik's recent suggestion:
"I found a little workaround to simulate the smart folders from Zoot in UR: Instead of creating a folder I am inserting a Search Item. Then I add the query (or rule) and save it. Then I mark the “Automatically start saved search when search item selected” in Tools -> Options -> Search/Reminders."
-c
Dominik Holenstein
8/5/2007 11:52 am
The tool I can recommend on the Mac side is Tinderbox.
It has a similar feature like Zoot's Smart Folders. Further, you can visualise the content like a Mind Map or like in PersonalBrain::
http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/index.html
Price: $229
PS:
The Windows version seems to be available soon according to Mark Bernstein, the inventor and developer of Tinderbox.
It has a similar feature like Zoot's Smart Folders. Further, you can visualise the content like a Mind Map or like in PersonalBrain::
http://www.eastgate.com/Tinderbox/index.html
Price: $229
PS:
The Windows version seems to be available soon according to Mark Bernstein, the inventor and developer of Tinderbox.
Hugh Pile
8/6/2007 1:57 pm
Jim wrote:
Fellow Outliners:
Anyone who has
experience with PIM software on the Mac side? How does the stuff really compare with
what we have on the PC side?
Hugh Pile
8/6/2007 2:56 pm
Jim
What I intended to add above is "Yes, I have experience of Mac PIMs", and "Yes, some Mac PIMs are good, but often in ways somewhat different from Windows PIMs".
As with Windows PIMs there are different categories - for example Outlook types like MS Entourage, data managers like DevonThink, "true" outliners like Opal and OmniOutliner, and journallers like, well, Journler (though like Windows PIMs they tend to shade into each other).
From your post it looks as if you're focusing chiefly on data managers. Again there are different flavours - chiefly taggers and trees. DevonThink is generally regarded as the biggest gun of them all, and is tree-based. It has an excellent search function and a "relevance" index; it will find "the data you didn't know you had" (a very useful ability), so it's great for projects with lots of documents. Some users have tens of millions of words stashed in it.
But its UI is overdue an update, waiting (like some others) for the release of OS X Leopard, its database format is proprietary (though with its next release it may not be) and some regard it as overkill for their purposes. You probably need several hundred documents in it to begin to experience its power. It's worth scanning the DevonThink forum.
Yojimbo is a much simpler (and cheaper) tagger, good - I think - for more personal stuff like passwords, less good for large amounts of project data.
Tinderbox is another beast entirely. I have read of people paying its relatively high-priced fee, taking months trying to understand it and then failing. I have a life! It sounds as if it's a note-storer and recoverer, with mind-mapping aspects, some self-generating. I believe it's less good for storing large quantities of pre-existing documents as opposed to your own notes - it was, maybe still is, on offer with Yojimbo - and I have a hunch it would be less effective for free-hand creative work, where Curio or NovaMind would be better. http://www.atpm.com/10.10/atpo.shtml , though three years old, is worth reading if you're set on Tinderbox. There's also a lot of other information in apto on Mac outliners.
Yes, Mac OS X is good if you deal with many PDFs. There are various pieces of Mac software for manipulating them that are low-priced or free, and Preview is built into the OS. The Services menu of Mac OSX programmes is an effective way of passing data from one programme to another. There is nothing for the Mac like Zoot, UR or OneNote, but the functionality of the underlying platform means there mostly doesn't have to be (although in my opinion there's nothing to rival Zoot anywhere). DevonThink and Curio probably come closest in their differing ways. The release of Leopard (later this year?) may trigger a fresh wave of software innovation in a way that in the Windows world Vista so far has not.
My workflow is Devonthink Pro>Curio>Scrivener>MSWord. I also use Yojimbo for simpler storage. I may drop DevonThink if I find Scrivener or Curio can contain all my research, and I'm actively looking for a replacement for Word, like Mellel, Nisus Writer Pro or possibly Bean. But unfortunately no one has so far replicated Word's change-tracking function.
What I intended to add above is "Yes, I have experience of Mac PIMs", and "Yes, some Mac PIMs are good, but often in ways somewhat different from Windows PIMs".
As with Windows PIMs there are different categories - for example Outlook types like MS Entourage, data managers like DevonThink, "true" outliners like Opal and OmniOutliner, and journallers like, well, Journler (though like Windows PIMs they tend to shade into each other).
From your post it looks as if you're focusing chiefly on data managers. Again there are different flavours - chiefly taggers and trees. DevonThink is generally regarded as the biggest gun of them all, and is tree-based. It has an excellent search function and a "relevance" index; it will find "the data you didn't know you had" (a very useful ability), so it's great for projects with lots of documents. Some users have tens of millions of words stashed in it.
But its UI is overdue an update, waiting (like some others) for the release of OS X Leopard, its database format is proprietary (though with its next release it may not be) and some regard it as overkill for their purposes. You probably need several hundred documents in it to begin to experience its power. It's worth scanning the DevonThink forum.
Yojimbo is a much simpler (and cheaper) tagger, good - I think - for more personal stuff like passwords, less good for large amounts of project data.
Tinderbox is another beast entirely. I have read of people paying its relatively high-priced fee, taking months trying to understand it and then failing. I have a life! It sounds as if it's a note-storer and recoverer, with mind-mapping aspects, some self-generating. I believe it's less good for storing large quantities of pre-existing documents as opposed to your own notes - it was, maybe still is, on offer with Yojimbo - and I have a hunch it would be less effective for free-hand creative work, where Curio or NovaMind would be better. http://www.atpm.com/10.10/atpo.shtml , though three years old, is worth reading if you're set on Tinderbox. There's also a lot of other information in apto on Mac outliners.
Yes, Mac OS X is good if you deal with many PDFs. There are various pieces of Mac software for manipulating them that are low-priced or free, and Preview is built into the OS. The Services menu of Mac OSX programmes is an effective way of passing data from one programme to another. There is nothing for the Mac like Zoot, UR or OneNote, but the functionality of the underlying platform means there mostly doesn't have to be (although in my opinion there's nothing to rival Zoot anywhere). DevonThink and Curio probably come closest in their differing ways. The release of Leopard (later this year?) may trigger a fresh wave of software innovation in a way that in the Windows world Vista so far has not.
My workflow is Devonthink Pro>Curio>Scrivener>MSWord. I also use Yojimbo for simpler storage. I may drop DevonThink if I find Scrivener or Curio can contain all my research, and I'm actively looking for a replacement for Word, like Mellel, Nisus Writer Pro or possibly Bean. But unfortunately no one has so far replicated Word's change-tracking function.
Hugh Pile
8/6/2007 4:30 pm
Jim
As a postscript to the above, you could as you say use Parallels to have the best of both worlds. That's what I would do if I was in the market for a powerful desktop or laptop today; I'd buy an Intel Mac and put Windows on it.
I've moved Zoot text files, RTF files and PDFs that have been OCR'd back and forth between separate PCs and Macs without difficulty. I've read that on a single machine with Parallels, drag and drop of text or RTF material between the two different kinds of software would be straightforward. You have to be a little careful about which flavour of RTF you're dealing with, but that is all.
H
As a postscript to the above, you could as you say use Parallels to have the best of both worlds. That's what I would do if I was in the market for a powerful desktop or laptop today; I'd buy an Intel Mac and put Windows on it.
I've moved Zoot text files, RTF files and PDFs that have been OCR'd back and forth between separate PCs and Macs without difficulty. I've read that on a single machine with Parallels, drag and drop of text or RTF material between the two different kinds of software would be straightforward. You have to be a little careful about which flavour of RTF you're dealing with, but that is all.
H
jamesofford
8/6/2007 11:23 pm
Many thanks everyone.
Cassius-thanks for reminding me about the UR trick to make it have "smart folders" I think I will give it a try.
Dominik-thanks for the vote of confidence for Tinderbox. It looks really useful. I have to admit that I have been waiting a long time for it to come to Windows.
Hugh-thanks for the word on Devonthink. I have to admit that it seems like the best software for what I want to do. Yes, primarily I am looking for a data manager. One of the things that I like to be able to do, even in the current world of fast search, is keep like things together. So I try to keep all of my project files together.
One thing, while I am switching my personal machine to a Mac, I am stuck with a PC at work. That's where I have the biggest challenge in organizing information.
Cassius-thanks for reminding me about the UR trick to make it have "smart folders" I think I will give it a try.
Dominik-thanks for the vote of confidence for Tinderbox. It looks really useful. I have to admit that I have been waiting a long time for it to come to Windows.
Hugh-thanks for the word on Devonthink. I have to admit that it seems like the best software for what I want to do. Yes, primarily I am looking for a data manager. One of the things that I like to be able to do, even in the current world of fast search, is keep like things together. So I try to keep all of my project files together.
One thing, while I am switching my personal machine to a Mac, I am stuck with a PC at work. That's where I have the biggest challenge in organizing information.
Stephen R. Diamond
8/7/2007 4:33 am
Enlightening summary. Where would you locate NoteTaker and Circus Ponies NoteBook in the Mac spectrum?
Hugh Pile
8/7/2007 10:02 am
Stephen R. Diamond wrote:
Enlightening summary. Where would you locate NoteTaker and Circus Ponies NoteBook
in the Mac spectrum?
Stephen, if you mean what I wrote above, thanks.
I've never installed NoteTaker or NoteBook. I believe they have many similarities, their developers having once been business partners, and are both essentially tree-based, notebook-metaphor data managers with outlining capabilities. As data managers, I don't think they're as heavyweight as, say, DevonThink Pro. But they're also less expensive. When Ted Goranson reviewed them in depth in 2004 for apto, he commented that both were powerful applications, with NoteTaker more a freeform database in character, and Notebook using more of an outliner philosophy - it can provide "outlines of outlines". Melodie Neal surveyed NoteBook earlier this year (along with many other Mac data managers) in her blog "Deep Litter": http://melodien.blogspot.com/
H
H
Derek Cornish
8/7/2007 5:03 pm
Jim,
It's hard to know at this stage whether Zoot will ever be developed to store graphics, or pdfs, for that matter. There is something rather bracing about its dedication to plain text - although it is sure to get an rtf editor at some point - and a lot of data access issues can be improved by hyperlinking. For example, you could store your images and pdfs in Web Research and access them from Zoot's items via WR's "address links". Or you could simply store them in the Windows filing system and link them to Zoot items.
The problem, of course, is how to search this data (pdfs in particular) efficiently. If it's in WR, you can add pdftotext to WR and this will enable searches to be made within pdf files (as long as they are not image ones). But...the "hits" are not displayed and highlighted. You still have to go to the individual pdf files found by WR and search within them using Acrobat Reader's internal search.
Alternatively, you can keep pdfs in the Windows filing system and search them with any desktop indexed search engine (I use dtSearch). Or you can even place text copies of the pdfs inside Zoot with links to the original file. That way you can use Zoot's own search features. Storing long text items in Zoot will presumably be improved in Zoot32. At the moment there is about a 5000 word limit per item before incoming text gets split into smaller chunks over successive items.
None of this is very satisfactory. How did we allow Adobe to foist the pdf on to us? It is the most intractable of formats, and too often used when plain text would do just as well...
So, I remain ambivalent about how much Zoot should be developed in the direction of an information bucket like UR. It is superlative for plain text and with an (optional, I hope) rtf or html (xml?) editor, freedom from current restrictions on numbers of folders and item length, it is going to be very exciting IMO. These - plus the fact that linking to external data will be much improved as other software developers add url address-links to their contents - e.g., WhizFolders - will keep Zoot competitive and useful.
All it really needs in addition is a better way of accessing the contents of its database (*.zot) files from outside the program so that desktop search engines can include zot files it HDD searches. At the moment the best solution is the export Zoot's databases to html, but the resulting files are large and take a while to search. This has to be done regularly, too, to keep the content up to date, so is a bit of a chore - but it gives a nice output to dtSearch.
Let us know how the Mac experiment goes. I'm sure many of us will be following this, and it would add a lot to the group (just IMHO) if we heard more from the Mac contingent. There seems to be so much going on "over there" at the moment.
All the best,
Derek
None of them quite did what I wanted. Zoot comes closest, but I need to be able to store graphics, and the text based nature of Zoot precludes that.
It's hard to know at this stage whether Zoot will ever be developed to store graphics, or pdfs, for that matter. There is something rather bracing about its dedication to plain text - although it is sure to get an rtf editor at some point - and a lot of data access issues can be improved by hyperlinking. For example, you could store your images and pdfs in Web Research and access them from Zoot's items via WR's "address links". Or you could simply store them in the Windows filing system and link them to Zoot items.
The problem, of course, is how to search this data (pdfs in particular) efficiently. If it's in WR, you can add pdftotext to WR and this will enable searches to be made within pdf files (as long as they are not image ones). But...the "hits" are not displayed and highlighted. You still have to go to the individual pdf files found by WR and search within them using Acrobat Reader's internal search.
Alternatively, you can keep pdfs in the Windows filing system and search them with any desktop indexed search engine (I use dtSearch). Or you can even place text copies of the pdfs inside Zoot with links to the original file. That way you can use Zoot's own search features. Storing long text items in Zoot will presumably be improved in Zoot32. At the moment there is about a 5000 word limit per item before incoming text gets split into smaller chunks over successive items.
None of this is very satisfactory. How did we allow Adobe to foist the pdf on to us? It is the most intractable of formats, and too often used when plain text would do just as well...
So, I remain ambivalent about how much Zoot should be developed in the direction of an information bucket like UR. It is superlative for plain text and with an (optional, I hope) rtf or html (xml?) editor, freedom from current restrictions on numbers of folders and item length, it is going to be very exciting IMO. These - plus the fact that linking to external data will be much improved as other software developers add url address-links to their contents - e.g., WhizFolders - will keep Zoot competitive and useful.
All it really needs in addition is a better way of accessing the contents of its database (*.zot) files from outside the program so that desktop search engines can include zot files it HDD searches. At the moment the best solution is the export Zoot's databases to html, but the resulting files are large and take a while to search. This has to be done regularly, too, to keep the content up to date, so is a bit of a chore - but it gives a nice output to dtSearch.
Let us know how the Mac experiment goes. I'm sure many of us will be following this, and it would add a lot to the group (just IMHO) if we heard more from the Mac contingent. There seems to be so much going on "over there" at the moment.
All the best,
Derek
Graham Rhind
8/7/2007 5:37 pm
Derek Cornish wrote:
Oops, can't let that one go by. I bless the day that the pdf was developed. Those of us who use many languages need programs like Acrobat to allow fonts to be embedded, so that anybody who reads the document doesn't have to buy and install all the fonts used. Any speaker of any language used outside Western Europe would have a tough time using plain text when passing information to people outside their language region.
This is also one of the reasons I'd like to see improvements in this area in Zoot ...
Graham
How did we allow Adobe to
foist the pdf on to us? It is the most intractable of formats, and too often used when
plain text would do just as well...
Oops, can't let that one go by. I bless the day that the pdf was developed. Those of us who use many languages need programs like Acrobat to allow fonts to be embedded, so that anybody who reads the document doesn't have to buy and install all the fonts used. Any speaker of any language used outside Western Europe would have a tough time using plain text when passing information to people outside their language region.
This is also one of the reasons I'd like to see improvements in this area in Zoot ...
Graham
jamesofford
8/8/2007 12:46 am
Once again, thanks everyone.
I am taking the plunge tomorrow and picking up a Macbook. It's been a long time since I used a Mac, but it will be like going home. It will probably take me a while to get it organized and set up to my needs, but I will be trying out some of the software we have discussed in the last few days.
I was about to ask about Notetaker and Hog Bay Notebook(Now called Mori and available from Apokalypse software http://apokalypsesoftware.com/products/mori I will take look at Deep Litter and see what Melodie has to say.
Finally, I have been going back over earlier postings at About this Particular Outliner(http://www.atpm.com/Back/atpo.shtml)to get a feel for all of the different software that is available for the Mac, and what the capabilities are. I have read Ted Goranson's excellent postings before, but not paid quite the same attention to them since I have been using a PC.
I'll let everyone know how things are going.
I am taking the plunge tomorrow and picking up a Macbook. It's been a long time since I used a Mac, but it will be like going home. It will probably take me a while to get it organized and set up to my needs, but I will be trying out some of the software we have discussed in the last few days.
I was about to ask about Notetaker and Hog Bay Notebook(Now called Mori and available from Apokalypse software http://apokalypsesoftware.com/products/mori I will take look at Deep Litter and see what Melodie has to say.
Finally, I have been going back over earlier postings at About this Particular Outliner(http://www.atpm.com/Back/atpo.shtml)to get a feel for all of the different software that is available for the Mac, and what the capabilities are. I have read Ted Goranson's excellent postings before, but not paid quite the same attention to them since I have been using a PC.
I'll let everyone know how things are going.
David Dunham
8/8/2007 2:18 am
Depending on how long ago you had a Mac, it may not entirely be like going home, in that Mac OS X has some differences from Mac OS. And if you once used Acta, Opal will have some differences as well (since it tries to be a good Mac OS X app).
Anyway, same offer I make to anyone on this forum. Contact me if you want a discount on Opal.
And welcome (back) to Macintosh!
Anyway, same offer I make to anyone on this forum. Contact me if you want a discount on Opal.
And welcome (back) to Macintosh!
Cassius
8/8/2007 4:56 am
JIM: URGENT!
If you haven't purchased yet and you intend to use the MacBook on battery, you should look into which Intel processors are or soon will be available.
According to an article I just read, Intel has new 7000 series Core 2 Duo chips that are supposed to extend battery life. Some new PC laptops have them. I don't know about Macs, but...
-c
If you haven't purchased yet and you intend to use the MacBook on battery, you should look into which Intel processors are or soon will be available.
According to an article I just read, Intel has new 7000 series Core 2 Duo chips that are supposed to extend battery life. Some new PC laptops have them. I don't know about Macs, but...
-c
Derek Cornish
8/8/2007 2:25 pm
Graham,
I couldn't agree more, Graham. But my point was a different one:
Me, too. But I could say this about a lot of the programs discussed here. OneNote seems to do the best job at the moment.
Derek
Those of us who use many languages need programs like Acrobat to allow fonts to be embedded, so that anybody who reads the document doesn’t have to buy and install all the fonts used.
I couldn't agree more, Graham. But my point was a different one:
> It is the most intractable of formats, and too often used when plain text would do just as well…
This is also one of the reasons I’d like to see improvements in this area in Zoot ...
Me, too. But I could say this about a lot of the programs discussed here. OneNote seems to do the best job at the moment.
Derek
Jonathan Probber
8/8/2007 5:09 pm
Jim: Journler got a brief mention, but I think you ought to really check this one out. Imports pictures, audio and video, Acrobat files, and just about anything else. Really Smooth. And...it's free!
For straight outlining, OmniOutliner Pro seems to be the bomb. I've been on my MacBook now for 2 months after years of Windows, and I'm really enjoying it.
Good Luck!
For straight outlining, OmniOutliner Pro seems to be the bomb. I've been on my MacBook now for 2 months after years of Windows, and I'm really enjoying it.
Good Luck!
Hugh Pile
8/8/2007 5:53 pm
Jim wrote:
I was about to ask about
Notetaker and Hog Bay Notebook(Now called Mori and available from Apokalypse
software http://apokalypsesoftware.com/products/mori
Welcome back to the Mac world, Jim! This may be a good moment to switch. The new iMacs announced today look particularly desirable; as Mrs Simpson observed, you can never be too thin.
Mori is another mid-range, notebook-metaphor data manager. When I had a cursory look at it a few months ago, I thought it might provide more functionality per pound than either NoteTaker or Circus Ponies, but since then the original developer has sold it and it remains to be seen whether the new owner will bring to it the same enthusiasm.
I have used Journler. It's very capable and nicely-designed donationware, but for me its journalling tools slightly obscured its data management capabilities and I had no use for its multi-media functions.
H
Hugh Pile
8/9/2007 3:26 pm
Hugh Pile wrote:
My workflow is Devonthink
Pro>Curio>Scrivener>MSWord. I also use Yojimbo for simpler storage. I may drop
DevonThink if I find Scrivener or Curio can contain all my research, and I'm actively
looking for a replacement for Word, like Mellel, Nisus Writer Pro or possibly Bean.
But unfortunately no one has so far replicated Word's change-tracking function.
Ha! Never say "no one".
Apple's Pages, contained within iWork 2008 just launched, has a pretty-looking change-tracking function. Pages can even import MS Word's tracked changes, as well as many other Word elements. http://www.apple.com/iwork/pages/
It's still the only such alternative I know of. But a Word-free future has just opened up, should one want it.
Captain CowPie
8/11/2007 1:20 am
Jim wrote:
Jim, good luck on your Mac purchase. I am getting ready to join the Dark Side when they update the Mac Pro, hopefully right before Leopard comes out. I am in a similar situation as you, searching for a good software program to meet my needs.
I plan on trying out DevinThink and Tinderbox first. But having researched them recently, I heard that Tinderbox slows down considerably with a lot of graphics. You might want to test this with a demo before purchasing.
Either way, let us know how the purchase goes. I am excited to make the jump soon.
Vince
Like many of you I have been searching for some time for a piece of
software that will help me to organize all of the information that I have flying at me.
And like many of you I have been frustrated. I have used Zoot, UltraRecall, Onenote, a
few other different outliner programs, Ecco, and Omea Pro. None of them quite did what
I wanted. Zoot comes closest, but I need to be able to store graphics, and the text based
nature of Zoot precludes that.
Jim, good luck on your Mac purchase. I am getting ready to join the Dark Side when they update the Mac Pro, hopefully right before Leopard comes out. I am in a similar situation as you, searching for a good software program to meet my needs.
I plan on trying out DevinThink and Tinderbox first. But having researched them recently, I heard that Tinderbox slows down considerably with a lot of graphics. You might want to test this with a demo before purchasing.
Either way, let us know how the purchase goes. I am excited to make the jump soon.
Vince
jamesofford
8/12/2007 4:34 pm
I am in love.
My new Macbook and I are getting acquainted, and I am enjoying myself as I have not done in a long time with computers. A friend of mine, who has been a Mac partisan for years sent me an email congratulating me on coming back to the fold. One of the points that he made is that while these days all computers work, the Mac goes further to make things work elegantly. He's right. This computer is a joy to use. From the beautiful user interface, to the fact that the computer moves seamlessly from one program to another. Sigh. Also, the core duo 2 makes a big difference to the way I work because I tend to keep several different programs open at a time, punch a function key and poof-all the programs that you are running are available and ready to switch to.
As David mentioned, OS X is not the same as the old MacOs. It is taking some getting used to. However, the differences are not so great that I am lost, and when I do run into something different, it usually is pretty easy to deal with.
Now on to the PIM front.
I downloaded Devonthink Pro. I have not really exercized it as much as I would like yet, but there are a few things that I can say.
First, it took in all of the PDF files that I had stored in my reference folders without a hiccup. That's little over 2000 files in several different folders. All the PDF files imported fine. And Devonthink found many duplicates. The duplicate finding was done by analyzing the text in the files because they all had slightly different titles.
The search is lightning fast, even with that many files, and that many words.
My first impression is that this program will work well with my PDF issues. Only one problm is that most of the issues with organizing and searching PDF files is in my work. I am a research scientist in an industrial setting, and I am constrained to use a PC at work. I need to keep all kinds of information organized including PDF files I download from the internet, meeting minutes, emails, project documents of all kinds. I would love to be able to do that in Devonthink, but need to keep that information on my work machine. The PDF files from the internet(Journal articles mostly) I can put on my personal machine, but not work stuff. I may be able to pull that information in by putting it on an external drive and inputting what amounts to aliases into Devonthink. I don't know.
However, I will keep the group up-to-date on what I am doing as I go along. If you are interested in knowing whether some feature exists in Devonthink, or whether some feature works as you would like, feel free to ask me to test it out. I am happy to give things a try.
I will also post links to other sites that have info on Devonthink as I go along.
Finally, I am going to look into other programs like Eaglefiler, Yojimbo, Mori, Notetaker and the like. Now that I am cross-platform(albeit on two different laptops, I haven't gone so far as to install Parallels yet.)I can do some comparisons and let the group know what things feel like.
One last thing, if you have been thinking about making the switch to a Mac, if the software that you need to use exists on a Mac, make the jump. I don't think you will regret it.
My new Macbook and I are getting acquainted, and I am enjoying myself as I have not done in a long time with computers. A friend of mine, who has been a Mac partisan for years sent me an email congratulating me on coming back to the fold. One of the points that he made is that while these days all computers work, the Mac goes further to make things work elegantly. He's right. This computer is a joy to use. From the beautiful user interface, to the fact that the computer moves seamlessly from one program to another. Sigh. Also, the core duo 2 makes a big difference to the way I work because I tend to keep several different programs open at a time, punch a function key and poof-all the programs that you are running are available and ready to switch to.
As David mentioned, OS X is not the same as the old MacOs. It is taking some getting used to. However, the differences are not so great that I am lost, and when I do run into something different, it usually is pretty easy to deal with.
Now on to the PIM front.
I downloaded Devonthink Pro. I have not really exercized it as much as I would like yet, but there are a few things that I can say.
First, it took in all of the PDF files that I had stored in my reference folders without a hiccup. That's little over 2000 files in several different folders. All the PDF files imported fine. And Devonthink found many duplicates. The duplicate finding was done by analyzing the text in the files because they all had slightly different titles.
The search is lightning fast, even with that many files, and that many words.
My first impression is that this program will work well with my PDF issues. Only one problm is that most of the issues with organizing and searching PDF files is in my work. I am a research scientist in an industrial setting, and I am constrained to use a PC at work. I need to keep all kinds of information organized including PDF files I download from the internet, meeting minutes, emails, project documents of all kinds. I would love to be able to do that in Devonthink, but need to keep that information on my work machine. The PDF files from the internet(Journal articles mostly) I can put on my personal machine, but not work stuff. I may be able to pull that information in by putting it on an external drive and inputting what amounts to aliases into Devonthink. I don't know.
However, I will keep the group up-to-date on what I am doing as I go along. If you are interested in knowing whether some feature exists in Devonthink, or whether some feature works as you would like, feel free to ask me to test it out. I am happy to give things a try.
I will also post links to other sites that have info on Devonthink as I go along.
Finally, I am going to look into other programs like Eaglefiler, Yojimbo, Mori, Notetaker and the like. Now that I am cross-platform(albeit on two different laptops, I haven't gone so far as to install Parallels yet.)I can do some comparisons and let the group know what things feel like.
One last thing, if you have been thinking about making the switch to a Mac, if the software that you need to use exists on a Mac, make the jump. I don't think you will regret it.
Hugh Pile
8/12/2007 6:58 pm
Jim,
Two small Mac programmes worth investigating: Sidenote, http://www.chatelp.org/?page_id=5 a simple pop-out note-taker, and Skim, http://skim-app.sourceforge.net/ , a PDF reader and annotator. Both are donationware. I use Sidenote and have heard good reports of Skim.
H
Two small Mac programmes worth investigating: Sidenote, http://www.chatelp.org/?page_id=5 a simple pop-out note-taker, and Skim, http://skim-app.sourceforge.net/ , a PDF reader and annotator. Both are donationware. I use Sidenote and have heard good reports of Skim.
H
jamesofford
8/14/2007 4:27 am
Well, the Macbook and I are getting along pretty well. I am having to learn some new things, but all in all it's still feeling pretty good.
I have been focusing my time on two programs:Devonthink Pro, and Papers.
Devonthink is truly an excellent program for managing data. I pumped all of my PDFs into it, and now I can search them easily and quickly and pull out the stuff I need. A far cry from the old days on my XP machine. I still need to figure out Smart groups and a few other things, but so far, so good.
Papers is also pretty good. It is build for academic researchers to search for and store published papers. It works pretty well. Right now I am slowly working through the PDFs that I have to add the metadata that Papers needs to sort the PDF files.
More on both of these later.
I am going to go exploring and download Eagefiler and Yojimbo to see how they work with my PDF collection.
I will try to keep people updated on how things are going, and once I have had a sufficient amount of time to put everything through its paces, I will try to do a comprehensive review.
I have been focusing my time on two programs:Devonthink Pro, and Papers.
Devonthink is truly an excellent program for managing data. I pumped all of my PDFs into it, and now I can search them easily and quickly and pull out the stuff I need. A far cry from the old days on my XP machine. I still need to figure out Smart groups and a few other things, but so far, so good.
Papers is also pretty good. It is build for academic researchers to search for and store published papers. It works pretty well. Right now I am slowly working through the PDFs that I have to add the metadata that Papers needs to sort the PDF files.
More on both of these later.
I am going to go exploring and download Eagefiler and Yojimbo to see how they work with my PDF collection.
I will try to keep people updated on how things are going, and once I have had a sufficient amount of time to put everything through its paces, I will try to do a comprehensive review.
Chris Thompson
8/14/2007 3:44 pm
If you're looking for a really hardcore pure outliner, with all the major features of More as well as a swath of new ones, be sure to check out TAO:
http://artec-software.com/products/neo/en_index.html
(Note that this is a completely different and unrelated program from TAO Notes for Windows.) TAO doesn't get the press of OmniOutliner, partly because it is a little harder to use, but if you're looking for something more sophisticated than OmniOutliner (a pretty good program in its own right, IMHO) or Opal, it's worth looking at. I've used all the major outlining tools for both Windows and Mac, and it's definitely the most feature rich, and the truest to the spirit of old outliners like More and Grandview.
As an alternative to DevonThink for managing PDFs, also look into Yep. Yep has a much better UI and is very strong at handling tags (DevonThink's main weakness), but it doesn't have some of the bells and whistles of DevonThink.
If you're looking for a hierarchical, outline-based task manager similar to Ecco, try to get in on the OmniFocus beta. I use that program every day and now consider it essential, but I've always liked the outline metaphor for managing todos, tasks, and projects.
Also, be sure to read Ted Goranson's semi-regular ATPO column online. He does a thorough job surveying all manner of Mac outliners.
Whichever way you go, have fun! There's no shortage of either outliners, information management, or writing tools for OS X. In particular, outliners are a real strength of the platform.
-- Chris
Jonathan Probber wrote:
http://artec-software.com/products/neo/en_index.html
(Note that this is a completely different and unrelated program from TAO Notes for Windows.) TAO doesn't get the press of OmniOutliner, partly because it is a little harder to use, but if you're looking for something more sophisticated than OmniOutliner (a pretty good program in its own right, IMHO) or Opal, it's worth looking at. I've used all the major outlining tools for both Windows and Mac, and it's definitely the most feature rich, and the truest to the spirit of old outliners like More and Grandview.
As an alternative to DevonThink for managing PDFs, also look into Yep. Yep has a much better UI and is very strong at handling tags (DevonThink's main weakness), but it doesn't have some of the bells and whistles of DevonThink.
If you're looking for a hierarchical, outline-based task manager similar to Ecco, try to get in on the OmniFocus beta. I use that program every day and now consider it essential, but I've always liked the outline metaphor for managing todos, tasks, and projects.
Also, be sure to read Ted Goranson's semi-regular ATPO column online. He does a thorough job surveying all manner of Mac outliners.
Whichever way you go, have fun! There's no shortage of either outliners, information management, or writing tools for OS X. In particular, outliners are a real strength of the platform.
-- Chris
Jonathan Probber wrote:
For straight outlining, OmniOutliner Pro seems
to be the bomb. I've been on my MacBook now for 2 months after years of Windows, and I'm
really enjoying it.