A link to the Milenix Blog
Started by Dominik Holenstein
on 6/19/2007
Dominik Holenstein
6/19/2007 6:25 pm
This new feature in MyInfo 4 reminds me very much of UltraRecall:
http://www.milenix.com/blog/
Dominik
http://www.milenix.com/blog/
Dominik
quant
6/19/2007 6:42 pm
that by itself would be fine, and only recognizing that it's a very useful feature (probably taken from an already more powerful software), what is not nice is the lie that follows it:
"In conclusion, MyInfo 4 will offer the most powerful meta data capabilities, which aren’t available in any other PIM on the market!"
"In conclusion, MyInfo 4 will offer the most powerful meta data capabilities, which aren’t available in any other PIM on the market!"
Thomas
6/20/2007 7:57 pm
quant wrote:
Everbody copies something from someone else. This kind of GUI isn't innovative feature of UR, I have seen it elsewhere too (eg. Delphi programming language GUI).
MI4 wasn't released yet, so I would be careful to make any judgements or comparisons without seeing the product first.
If MI4 moved feature-wise more towards UR, I wouldn't mind at all. I hope that kind of competition would help UR programmers move in the "right" direction and more speadily. (They are great as it is, but MI4 is leagues above UR when it comes to being friendly and simple to use for new users.)
(probably taken from an already more powerful software),
Everbody copies something from someone else. This kind of GUI isn't innovative feature of UR, I have seen it elsewhere too (eg. Delphi programming language GUI).
what is not nice is the lie
that follows it:
"In conclusion, MyInfo 4 will offer the most powerful meta data
capabilities, which aren’t available in any other PIM on the market!"
MI4 wasn't released yet, so I would be careful to make any judgements or comparisons without seeing the product first.
If MI4 moved feature-wise more towards UR, I wouldn't mind at all. I hope that kind of competition would help UR programmers move in the "right" direction and more speadily. (They are great as it is, but MI4 is leagues above UR when it comes to being friendly and simple to use for new users.)
quant
6/21/2007 10:31 am
Thomas wrote:
however, there is a huge difference to where the feature is applied. While it's common in programming GUIs, it's not used in PIM cause not many softwares offer meta-data. An example, while partial differential equations were long known before 1973, when Black-Scholes used it to option pricing, they got a Nobel Prize for it!
And after that, saying that no other program has it, hmm, at least author could write sth like "to my best knowledge ... ", but even then it would be lie (cause I'm sure developers know their competitors)!
yes, but isn't it friendlier because what you said in the first sentence, ie. because it has much much less features than UR? Moreover, everything in UR is fully customizable, the problem is that new users are overwhelmed by so many features UR provides and they never experienced in another software, that they think it's not user friendly ... it was suggested by some users on UR forum to create a simpler "Beginner" interface, where advanced features would be disabled, and once people familiarize with UR, they could just which to "Advanced" mode somewhere in the option setting ....
quant wrote:
>(probably taken from an already more powerful software),
Everbody
copies something from someone else. This kind of GUI isn't innovative feature of UR, I
have seen it elsewhere too (eg. Delphi programming language GUI).
however, there is a huge difference to where the feature is applied. While it's common in programming GUIs, it's not used in PIM cause not many softwares offer meta-data. An example, while partial differential equations were long known before 1973, when Black-Scholes used it to option pricing, they got a Nobel Prize for it!
And after that, saying that no other program has it, hmm, at least author could write sth like "to my best knowledge ... ", but even then it would be lie (cause I'm sure developers know their competitors)!
If MI4 moved feature-wise more
towards UR, I wouldn't mind at all. I hope that kind of competition would help UR
programmers move in the "right" direction and more speadily. (They are great as it is,
but MI4 is leagues above UR when it comes to being friendly and simple to use for new
users.)
yes, but isn't it friendlier because what you said in the first sentence, ie. because it has much much less features than UR? Moreover, everything in UR is fully customizable, the problem is that new users are overwhelmed by so many features UR provides and they never experienced in another software, that they think it's not user friendly ... it was suggested by some users on UR forum to create a simpler "Beginner" interface, where advanced features would be disabled, and once people familiarize with UR, they could just which to "Advanced" mode somewhere in the option setting ....
Graham Rhind
6/21/2007 11:06 am
quant wrote:
I have to disagree. Being rich in features is not UR's problem in my mind, and nor is its interface. It's problems stem from lack of a usable help file, lack of useful error messages when something is not doing what it is supposed to do, lack of a user-friendly support system and general sluggishness. I think Kinook should concentrate on those issues before fiddling with the interface. As we've discussed before, you like the challenge of spending time trying to find a way around UR's limitations to use it's power to the max. Personally, I don't have the time or inclination to take on that challenge. I can get the same power elsewhere, more easily. :-)
Graham
yes, but isn't it friendlier because
what you said in the first sentence, ie. because it has much much less features than UR?
Moreover, everything in UR is fully customizable, the problem is that new users are
overwhelmed by so many features UR provides and they never experienced in another
software, that they think it's not user friendly ... it was suggested by some users on
UR forum to create a simpler "Beginner" interface, where advanced features would be
disabled, and once people familiarize with UR, they could just which to "Advanced"
mode somewhere in the option setting ....
I have to disagree. Being rich in features is not UR's problem in my mind, and nor is its interface. It's problems stem from lack of a usable help file, lack of useful error messages when something is not doing what it is supposed to do, lack of a user-friendly support system and general sluggishness. I think Kinook should concentrate on those issues before fiddling with the interface. As we've discussed before, you like the challenge of spending time trying to find a way around UR's limitations to use it's power to the max. Personally, I don't have the time or inclination to take on that challenge. I can get the same power elsewhere, more easily. :-)
Graham
Graham Rhind
6/21/2007 11:07 am
Oh, but I shouild say, I agree with you about Milenix's statement - it's basically untrue and I was embarrassed for them when I read it.
Graham
Graham
quant
6/21/2007 11:17 am
Graham Rhind wrote:
If I could get the same power elsewhere, I too would prefer just to use another soft, rather that think how to get around in UR to achieve that. Please, share with us which soft you have in mind? (it's not meant to be sarcastic) :)
The features I need are: meta-data (attributes), internal/externam links, saved search items. (I can live without forms, powerful editor, or website grabber)
As we've discussed before, you like the challenge of spending time trying to find a way
around UR's limitations to use it's power to the max. Personally, I don't have the time
or inclination to take on that challenge. I can get the same power elsewhere, more
easily. :-)
If I could get the same power elsewhere, I too would prefer just to use another soft, rather that think how to get around in UR to achieve that. Please, share with us which soft you have in mind? (it's not meant to be sarcastic) :)
The features I need are: meta-data (attributes), internal/externam links, saved search items. (I can live without forms, powerful editor, or website grabber)
Graham Rhind
6/21/2007 11:49 am
quant wrote:
Touché! I'm probably not the best person to answer this, as my needs tend to be different from an average user's. UR is an interface built onto a database. As a database manager, I could do much of what the UR interface does using a raw database program such as Visual Foxpro. In that way also, of course, I can also pick up the errors myself and not have to rely on Kinook's dodgy handling, but I'm not about to start writing PIMs so I use what is available! I must also say, it do find it interesting to analyse other people's takes on data management.
Don't get me wrong - building a PIM onto a database is a good idea and should lead to a powerful program. I just think Kinook have a basic misunderstanding of their end-users. If they could switch off their techie mode for a little while and do something about the customer support side of the program (help, error mesages etc.), I'm sure they could considerably reduce their time in answering the same questions over and over again on their forum. Also, they seriously need to address themselves to some really basic program bugs.
You may also know, from my other posts, that to me the concept of "metadata" is too vaguely and amorphously used by most people, and therefore requires some definition. If you mean tagging a note with keywords or attributes, for example, then I've never really understood why this can't be done just by adding the keywords to the text. In OneNote and Whizfolders (my two main outliner programs at the moment), for example, there are structured tagging possibility, but one can also simply add text to a note for it to be found in any searches. Hyperlinking of notes and externally is also possible in many programs, such as OneNote and Whizfolders, and any using an html/wiki paradigm. Saved searches: not sure what you mean by that - you want to run the same search regularly? Hmmm, not something I've tried myself so I don't know what would do it. I don't think that this can be done in OneNote or Whizfolders - I stand to be corrected.
Graham
If I could get the same power
elsewhere, I too would prefer just to use another soft, rather that think how to get
around in UR to achieve that. Please, share with us which soft you have in mind? (it's
not meant to be sarcastic) :)
The features I need are: meta-data (attributes),
internal/externam links, saved search items. (I can live without forms, powerful
editor, or website grabber)
Touché! I'm probably not the best person to answer this, as my needs tend to be different from an average user's. UR is an interface built onto a database. As a database manager, I could do much of what the UR interface does using a raw database program such as Visual Foxpro. In that way also, of course, I can also pick up the errors myself and not have to rely on Kinook's dodgy handling, but I'm not about to start writing PIMs so I use what is available! I must also say, it do find it interesting to analyse other people's takes on data management.
Don't get me wrong - building a PIM onto a database is a good idea and should lead to a powerful program. I just think Kinook have a basic misunderstanding of their end-users. If they could switch off their techie mode for a little while and do something about the customer support side of the program (help, error mesages etc.), I'm sure they could considerably reduce their time in answering the same questions over and over again on their forum. Also, they seriously need to address themselves to some really basic program bugs.
You may also know, from my other posts, that to me the concept of "metadata" is too vaguely and amorphously used by most people, and therefore requires some definition. If you mean tagging a note with keywords or attributes, for example, then I've never really understood why this can't be done just by adding the keywords to the text. In OneNote and Whizfolders (my two main outliner programs at the moment), for example, there are structured tagging possibility, but one can also simply add text to a note for it to be found in any searches. Hyperlinking of notes and externally is also possible in many programs, such as OneNote and Whizfolders, and any using an html/wiki paradigm. Saved searches: not sure what you mean by that - you want to run the same search regularly? Hmmm, not something I've tried myself so I don't know what would do it. I don't think that this can be done in OneNote or Whizfolders - I stand to be corrected.
Graham
quant
6/21/2007 12:25 pm
Graham Rhind wrote:
..."metadata" is too vaguely and
amorphously used by most people, and therefore requires some definition. If you mean
tagging a note with keywords or attributes, for example, then I've never really
understood why this can't be done just by adding the keywords to the text.
why? Because attribute has three things: name, type and value. The type is not just a simple text, it can be (in UR) string, date, data+time, number, time, boolean. And from this, the power is obvious
Saved searches: not sure what you mean by that - you want to run the same search
regularly? Hmmm, not something I've tried myself so I don't know what would do it.
it means that items themselves are searches. Like say I want to use date attribute to find all items that satisfy certain date condition, eg. ... the items are called "upcoming events", "recently updated items" ... and they return the list of search result, very convenient and powerful
Graham Rhind
6/21/2007 12:43 pm
Graham Rhind wrote:
..."metadata" is too vaguely and
>amorphously used by most
people, and therefore requires some definition. If you mean
>tagging a note with
keywords or attributes, for example, then I've never really
>understood why this
can't be done just by adding the keywords to the text.
why? Because attribute has
three things: name, type and value. The type is not just a simple text, it can be (in UR)
string, date, data+time, number, time, boolean. And from this, the power is obvious
These are field types (which are, like many things, indeed metadata). If I add this to a note:
"Afghanistan 21.06.2007 21.02.2007.14:39, 14:39, .T."
or
"Country=Afghanistan date=21.06.2007 date+time=21.02.2007.14:39, time=14:39, boolean=.T."
I achieve the same result. Clearly this is not a structured way of doing things, which is why databases are so powerful. I just don't like the way the theory has been put into practice by Kinook.
Ian Goldsmid
6/21/2007 12:59 pm
I have a license for UltraRecall Pro, but I think it has got snared in too many bugs and performance issues, so I have only rarely used it in recent months... Perhaps the code is now overly complex, and the development team too small to keep up in a timely manner... something like that....
I am keen to see Myinfo V4, and especially the new Zoot 5 beta....
In the meantime, I have become totally hooked on PB 4, mainly for file and web site navigation, with some use of OneNote 2007 for saving web pages, Outlook items, and some notes, but I really can't get comfortable with what is for me a too simplistic Book/Section/Notes paradigm.
I like that Myinfo 4 will have external links (uri's) to its Topics, meaning that if I do decide to use it, I can paste and use those links in Personal Brain. I don't believe Zoot 5 will provide uri's - at least not initially - which would be a significant limitation, and I also found that in Zoot 4 you could easily break the links to Outlook linked items, merely by moving the Outlook items into different folders - so I hope that Zoot 5's Outlook integration is more robust...
I am keen to see Myinfo V4, and especially the new Zoot 5 beta....
In the meantime, I have become totally hooked on PB 4, mainly for file and web site navigation, with some use of OneNote 2007 for saving web pages, Outlook items, and some notes, but I really can't get comfortable with what is for me a too simplistic Book/Section/Notes paradigm.
I like that Myinfo 4 will have external links (uri's) to its Topics, meaning that if I do decide to use it, I can paste and use those links in Personal Brain. I don't believe Zoot 5 will provide uri's - at least not initially - which would be a significant limitation, and I also found that in Zoot 4 you could easily break the links to Outlook linked items, merely by moving the Outlook items into different folders - so I hope that Zoot 5's Outlook integration is more robust...
quant
6/21/2007 1:02 pm
"Afghanistan 21.06.2007 21.02.2007.14:39,
14:39, .T."
or
"Country=Afghanistan date=21.06.2007
date+time=21.02.2007.14:39, time=14:39, boolean=.T."
I achieve the same
result. Clearly this is not a structured way of doing things, which is why databases
are so powerful.
sure you can do this, but what's the search performance, user friendliness ... ?
I worked 3 years in a company that used text files databases (similar to what you presented)!!! The speed of adding to db was perfect, but that's about it ...
I just don't like the way the theory has been put into practice by
Kinook.
any alternative to UR with the similar set of features?
Graham Rhind
6/21/2007 2:28 pm
Ian Goldsmid wrote:
Ouch. Last time I looked at PersonalBrain 4 beta, it just didn't do what it was supposed to. After your post, I downloaded the newest version, and it really has improved markedly!
And that after I'd just shifted everything to OneNote :-(
It's a bit pricey, though - USD 250 for the pro version.
In the meantime, I have become totally hooked on PB 4
Ouch. Last time I looked at PersonalBrain 4 beta, it just didn't do what it was supposed to. After your post, I downloaded the newest version, and it really has improved markedly!
And that after I'd just shifted everything to OneNote :-(
It's a bit pricey, though - USD 250 for the pro version.
Chris Murtland
6/21/2007 2:56 pm
Graham Rhind wrote:
It's worth noting here that Zoot allows a combined approach - you can arbitrarily enter fields in the body of the item and still work with them as if they are database fields ("delimited fields" in Zoot parlance).
Chris
These are field types (which are, like many things, indeed
metadata). If I add this to a note:
"Afghanistan 21.06.2007 21.02.2007.14:39,
14:39, .T."
or
"Country=Afghanistan date=21.06.2007
date+time=21.02.2007.14:39, time=14:39, boolean=.T."
I achieve the same
result. Clearly this is not a structured way of doing things, which is why databases
are so powerful. I just don't like the way the theory has been put into practice by
Kinook.
It's worth noting here that Zoot allows a combined approach - you can arbitrarily enter fields in the body of the item and still work with them as if they are database fields ("delimited fields" in Zoot parlance).
Chris