Evernote + Scrivener to write a book?
Started by Vincek
on 10/13/2011
Vincek
10/13/2011 6:17 pm
This post is a followup to another post from a few days ago http://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/3256/0/a-theory-of-outliner-software-market-development
I would appreciate tapping the wisdom of this group in reacting to the patchwork solution I am zeroing in on to write my book. Will my proposed solution work smoothly? am I missing anything?
Here is what I am seeing as a solution:
* Capture research information in multiple notes using Evernote. Evernote has ability to capture text, graphics, pdf, etc. There will be hundreds of notes that will be the research to support my book.
* Export individual Evernote notes to .html files. Evernote has the ability to export multiple individual notes as indivual html files. Evernote provides the capability of selecting specific notes for export.
* Import these .html files to Scrivener for Windows. In playing around with Scrivener so far, I tried importing 3 .html files simultaneously as a test. This was a test, so I am assuming Scrivener would not hiccup in being able import hundreds of html notes originating from Evernote.
* Use Scrivener to 1) filter and organize the notes, 2) as needed use the research to create an outline and write text for the book. fyi, Scrivener for Windows has been in beta for about a year, but is scheduled for a v 1.0 release on October 31.
Can you help me spot any problems before I spend many hours learning the software and reading the 200 page user manual for Scrivener?
* Will this solution work? am I missing anything?
* can you spot any problems that I am not anticipating
* Can you suggest other options?
Much appreciated,
Vince Kuraitis
I would appreciate tapping the wisdom of this group in reacting to the patchwork solution I am zeroing in on to write my book. Will my proposed solution work smoothly? am I missing anything?
Here is what I am seeing as a solution:
* Capture research information in multiple notes using Evernote. Evernote has ability to capture text, graphics, pdf, etc. There will be hundreds of notes that will be the research to support my book.
* Export individual Evernote notes to .html files. Evernote has the ability to export multiple individual notes as indivual html files. Evernote provides the capability of selecting specific notes for export.
* Import these .html files to Scrivener for Windows. In playing around with Scrivener so far, I tried importing 3 .html files simultaneously as a test. This was a test, so I am assuming Scrivener would not hiccup in being able import hundreds of html notes originating from Evernote.
* Use Scrivener to 1) filter and organize the notes, 2) as needed use the research to create an outline and write text for the book. fyi, Scrivener for Windows has been in beta for about a year, but is scheduled for a v 1.0 release on October 31.
Can you help me spot any problems before I spend many hours learning the software and reading the 200 page user manual for Scrivener?
* Will this solution work? am I missing anything?
* can you spot any problems that I am not anticipating
* Can you suggest other options?
Much appreciated,
Vince Kuraitis
Franz Grieser
10/13/2011 7:17 pm
Vincek.
I use Scrivener and Evernote both on the Mac and on my Windows machines. I haven't imported hundreds of HTML files at once into Scrivener, I usually do it in bunches of 5 to 10 or so files which has worked flawlessly so far.
I often copy and paste notes from Evernote, from OneNote (which I used to collect notes and web pages until I started using Evernote more and more), from web pages or from Word/OpenOffice files to my research folder in Scrivener.
Sometimes there are problems when importing RTF files on the Mac as the German umlauts (???) may get lost. This does not happen when I copy and paste though.
Franz
I use Scrivener and Evernote both on the Mac and on my Windows machines. I haven't imported hundreds of HTML files at once into Scrivener, I usually do it in bunches of 5 to 10 or so files which has worked flawlessly so far.
I often copy and paste notes from Evernote, from OneNote (which I used to collect notes and web pages until I started using Evernote more and more), from web pages or from Word/OpenOffice files to my research folder in Scrivener.
Sometimes there are problems when importing RTF files on the Mac as the German umlauts (???) may get lost. This does not happen when I copy and paste though.
Franz
Hugh
10/13/2011 7:29 pm
Here are one and a half suggestions.
A half suggestion: my experience is with Scrivener for the Mac, which has a very useful tutorial that takes an hour or so to absorb. After that, the manual, which, as you say, is quite hefty, becomes simply a reference work. If the 1.0 release of Scrivener for Windows has a similar tutorial, I'd focus my efforts on that. Read only the bits of the manual that you need to, as you use the application.
A full suggestion, if I'm correct in thinking that you're writing a non-fiction book? (The same principles could apply to a novel if it has a factual basis, but obviously to a much lesser extent.) An article by the historian and author Steven Berlin Johnson laid out the following procedure for outlining then writing a non-fiction book, using the Mac software DevonThink. You could just as easily use the method with Evernote and Scrivener.
1. Put together your outline however you like to do this. (Like all plans and outlines, you make it to change it, but it's still very useful to have.)
2. Lay out this outline, complete with chapters, and, if required, shorter sections, in Scrivener's Draft folder (Scrivener is ideal for writing and manipulating short chunky sections).
3. Replicate the outline into Scrivener's Research folder.
4. Pull across the key pieces of your research into the chapters and sections in the Research folder, in the order in which your outline requires.
5. Type up your manuscript in the Draft folder, using the twin-pane feature in the Scrivener Editor to keep your research outline and its documents alongside.
I hope this helps.
A couple of other thoughts: a very large load of research documents will slow Scrivener down, so you're right to keep your main research "library" in something like Evernote, just bringing across the key pieces to Scrivener. And, I've never tried importing large numbers of research papers into Scrivener in one go. No reason to think it won't take them. But I'd experiment first.
H
A half suggestion: my experience is with Scrivener for the Mac, which has a very useful tutorial that takes an hour or so to absorb. After that, the manual, which, as you say, is quite hefty, becomes simply a reference work. If the 1.0 release of Scrivener for Windows has a similar tutorial, I'd focus my efforts on that. Read only the bits of the manual that you need to, as you use the application.
A full suggestion, if I'm correct in thinking that you're writing a non-fiction book? (The same principles could apply to a novel if it has a factual basis, but obviously to a much lesser extent.) An article by the historian and author Steven Berlin Johnson laid out the following procedure for outlining then writing a non-fiction book, using the Mac software DevonThink. You could just as easily use the method with Evernote and Scrivener.
1. Put together your outline however you like to do this. (Like all plans and outlines, you make it to change it, but it's still very useful to have.)
2. Lay out this outline, complete with chapters, and, if required, shorter sections, in Scrivener's Draft folder (Scrivener is ideal for writing and manipulating short chunky sections).
3. Replicate the outline into Scrivener's Research folder.
4. Pull across the key pieces of your research into the chapters and sections in the Research folder, in the order in which your outline requires.
5. Type up your manuscript in the Draft folder, using the twin-pane feature in the Scrivener Editor to keep your research outline and its documents alongside.
I hope this helps.
A couple of other thoughts: a very large load of research documents will slow Scrivener down, so you're right to keep your main research "library" in something like Evernote, just bringing across the key pieces to Scrivener. And, I've never tried importing large numbers of research papers into Scrivener in one go. No reason to think it won't take them. But I'd experiment first.
H
Dr Andus
10/13/2011 7:58 pm
Depending on the amount of data you collect, you may find another software useful in the middle for analysing the raw data, process them and only use the outcome of the analysis in Scrivener. I suppose UltraRecall could do such a job or for heavy duty research there is NVivo. There might be simpler alternatives as well.
Alexander Deliyannis
10/13/2011 9:37 pm
Vince, I have very little experience with Scrivener, but it clearly fits the bill of a writing oriented program that I suggested could complement Evernote (in the other thread). It sounds like an excellent match. Thereon, writing is a very personal thing, so you should play around with Scrivener to make sure you feel comfortable using it.
Another half suggestion from my part as well: once you start putting material into your software setup, stick with that setup until you finish the book.
I would also second Hugh's proposed workflow. In my MBA dissertation --equivalent to a relatively small book- I replicated the thematic structure in Surfulater which I used for research and in Brainstorm which I used for writing (given the choices now available I would not suggest this combination, though Surfulater is at least as capable in clipping from the web as Evernote, and much more capable in organising). This proved a very useful approach; as Hugh pointed out, the outline is made to be changed, but the advantage is that one is improving the concepts whether researching or writing --a kind of double feedback loop as I imagine JBfrom would call it...
Another half suggestion from my part as well: once you start putting material into your software setup, stick with that setup until you finish the book.
I would also second Hugh's proposed workflow. In my MBA dissertation --equivalent to a relatively small book- I replicated the thematic structure in Surfulater which I used for research and in Brainstorm which I used for writing (given the choices now available I would not suggest this combination, though Surfulater is at least as capable in clipping from the web as Evernote, and much more capable in organising). This proved a very useful approach; as Hugh pointed out, the outline is made to be changed, but the advantage is that one is improving the concepts whether researching or writing --a kind of double feedback loop as I imagine JBfrom would call it...
Vincek
10/15/2011 5:31 pm
Franz, Thanks for feedback that importing 10 files does not cause problems. I can experiment with larger numbers.
Hugh, Thanks for pointing me to the tutorial. I tried it and found it needs cleaning up, so I will wait until Scrivener for Windows v 1.0 is realsed on Oct 31 to do major dive.
Yes, I am planning a non-fiction book. Thanks for outlining suggestion. Scrivener seems ideally suited to an iterative writing process. The manual even has a reference to GROWING a book, rather than simply writing a book. I will also watch for file size bloat that slows down the program.
Dr. Andus, thanks for your suggestion of an intermediate SW program. I will keep in mind and hope I can simplify this as much as possible.
Alexander, agree that I need to stick with a software setup once I get started. That is why all your feedback is invaluable in helping me before I sink a lot of time into a possible solution that will not work.
Also agree with your POV re needing to think about this as workflow solution for writing. Actually the more I think about it, this is a workflow solution for life, not just for writing a book. Evernote tag/search capabilities bring potential to do away with much need for hierarchical structure, thinking, and workflow.
Until now, the world has necessarily been organized around hierarchies. This is no longer a limitation in a digital world. For further elaboration, read Everything is Miscellaneous by Dave Winer.
So far all your input reinforces my thinking that Evernote + Scrivener will be a great combo! Thanks all for very helpful feedback.
Hugh, Thanks for pointing me to the tutorial. I tried it and found it needs cleaning up, so I will wait until Scrivener for Windows v 1.0 is realsed on Oct 31 to do major dive.
Yes, I am planning a non-fiction book. Thanks for outlining suggestion. Scrivener seems ideally suited to an iterative writing process. The manual even has a reference to GROWING a book, rather than simply writing a book. I will also watch for file size bloat that slows down the program.
Dr. Andus, thanks for your suggestion of an intermediate SW program. I will keep in mind and hope I can simplify this as much as possible.
Alexander, agree that I need to stick with a software setup once I get started. That is why all your feedback is invaluable in helping me before I sink a lot of time into a possible solution that will not work.
Also agree with your POV re needing to think about this as workflow solution for writing. Actually the more I think about it, this is a workflow solution for life, not just for writing a book. Evernote tag/search capabilities bring potential to do away with much need for hierarchical structure, thinking, and workflow.
Until now, the world has necessarily been organized around hierarchies. This is no longer a limitation in a digital world. For further elaboration, read Everything is Miscellaneous by Dave Winer.
So far all your input reinforces my thinking that Evernote + Scrivener will be a great combo! Thanks all for very helpful feedback.
Vincek
10/15/2011 6:33 pm
Hugh, based on your suggestion of outlining process recommended by Steven Berlin Johnson, I did a little digging. Is this what you were referring to: http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/movabletype/archives/000230.html ?
This looks very promising.
This looks very promising.
Hugh
10/15/2011 11:16 pm
Vincek wrote:
Hugh, based on your suggestion of outlining process recommended by Steven Berlin
Johnson, I did a little digging. Is this what you were referring to:
http://www.stevenberlinjohnson.com/movabletype/archives/000230.html
?
This looks very promising.
Vince,
No, I don't think so.
I think it's this article in the UK magazine Prospect:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2009/03/cutandpastewriting/
which unfortunately requires subscribing.
The article you link to gives a flavour of some of the other useful features of DT, of which Steven Berlin Johnson is as you can see a fan (justifiably, in my opinion).
Alexander Deliyannis
10/16/2011 1:35 pm
Vincek wrote:
Yes, I've read it (it's Weinberger by the way, Winer is the founder of the precedent to this here forum :-)
However, non-limitation is not always an advantage; a flat list of keywords is not necessarily a better descriptor of the world, which relies not only on objects' properties, but also on relationships and structures. I've seen this in practice, supporting a portal where fixed categories have been found to be more useful for finding content than free keywords. I believe that much of Weinberger's reasonable argumentation can be resolved by the use of 'clones' (identical synchronised copies of items placed in separate folders) which are supported by several outliners.
Within the context of writing a thesis, I expect that hierarchical structure and cross-referencing is unavoidable. By the way, I believe you'll find Evernote's recent support for links to its own notes very useful.
Until now, the world has necessarily been organized around hierarchies. This is no
longer a limitation in a digital world. For further elaboration, read Everything is
Miscellaneous by Dave Winer.
Yes, I've read it (it's Weinberger by the way, Winer is the founder of the precedent to this here forum :-)
However, non-limitation is not always an advantage; a flat list of keywords is not necessarily a better descriptor of the world, which relies not only on objects' properties, but also on relationships and structures. I've seen this in practice, supporting a portal where fixed categories have been found to be more useful for finding content than free keywords. I believe that much of Weinberger's reasonable argumentation can be resolved by the use of 'clones' (identical synchronised copies of items placed in separate folders) which are supported by several outliners.
Within the context of writing a thesis, I expect that hierarchical structure and cross-referencing is unavoidable. By the way, I believe you'll find Evernote's recent support for links to its own notes very useful.
Vincek
10/17/2011 5:32 am
Hugh, thanks for correct pointer to Johnson article.
Alexander, thanks for pointing out author of Everything is Miscellaneous is Weinberger.
All, I also posted this same question on the Evernote forum and have received additional helpful feedback:
http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=30838 Hugh... see espec comment by AndyDent.
Alexander, thanks for pointing out author of Everything is Miscellaneous is Weinberger.
All, I also posted this same question on the Evernote forum and have received additional helpful feedback:
http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=30838 Hugh... see espec comment by AndyDent.
Alexander Deliyannis
10/18/2011 8:08 pm
Vincek wrote:
This cross-posting is brilliant; you've really hit into something Vince; posting the same question in different forums and getting independent results! I suggest you also try the Scrivener forum, they might provide another complimentary approach. Thanks for the cross-link.
I wasn't able to see any comment by an AndyDent; I found 4 posts in total, two from yourself, one from Gazumped and one from GrumpyMonkey... Am I missing something?
Re the two (unanswered as far as I could see) questions you posted there, I am copying them here because I find them of wider interest:
"...for my purpose of writing a book, help me understand what are possible advantages of syncing info BACK to Evernote?"
From my personal point of view... none. If you use Evernote for gathering reference material, what would the benefit of tampering with that material? At best you would be annotating it, no? In that case, you'd probably be better off doing the annotation in the 'body' of your main work, i.e. separate the references from your own writing.
"I am not clear on the value add you see in using a text editor outside of Scrivener"
I think the main reason for using any kind of writing tool outside your main writing environment is precisely that: distance from the main work. For example, you may focus on a specific section, uninfluenced by the multitude of texts around you. It's similar to using 'hoist' in an outliner.
I such an instance, iPad's limitations (not running Scrivener, limited multitasking) actually become advantages.
All, I also posted this same question on the Evernote forum and have received additional
helpful feedback:
http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=30838
Hugh... see espec comment by AndyDent.
This cross-posting is brilliant; you've really hit into something Vince; posting the same question in different forums and getting independent results! I suggest you also try the Scrivener forum, they might provide another complimentary approach. Thanks for the cross-link.
I wasn't able to see any comment by an AndyDent; I found 4 posts in total, two from yourself, one from Gazumped and one from GrumpyMonkey... Am I missing something?
Re the two (unanswered as far as I could see) questions you posted there, I am copying them here because I find them of wider interest:
"...for my purpose of writing a book, help me understand what are possible advantages of syncing info BACK to Evernote?"
From my personal point of view... none. If you use Evernote for gathering reference material, what would the benefit of tampering with that material? At best you would be annotating it, no? In that case, you'd probably be better off doing the annotation in the 'body' of your main work, i.e. separate the references from your own writing.
"I am not clear on the value add you see in using a text editor outside of Scrivener"
I think the main reason for using any kind of writing tool outside your main writing environment is precisely that: distance from the main work. For example, you may focus on a specific section, uninfluenced by the multitude of texts around you. It's similar to using 'hoist' in an outliner.
I such an instance, iPad's limitations (not running Scrivener, limited multitasking) actually become advantages.