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Noteliner adds tables
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Posted by Daly de Gagne
Jul 7, 2011 at 10:59 PM
Sam, I began using Noteliner this week as an alternative to Planz http://kftf.ischool.washington.edu/planner_index.htm
What I realized once I got using Noteliner is how nice it is to have a one-pane outliner. So your contemplation of the possibility of using two panes causes me a little concern, and I’ll tell you why. Two reasons actually.
First, everyone seems to do two panes - there’s a lot of competition out there.
Second, a lament that has been made here from time to time is that there is not a good one-pane outliner in the Windows world. People who make that lament often have had experience with an old program of DOS days - Grandview - and/or MORE, an outliner in the Mac world.
As OutlinerSoftware members Cassius wrote here 16 Mar 2011: “There are far too many two-pane outliners to begin to list them, but I thought it might be worthwhile to try to put together a list of single-pane outliners, indicating if Windows or Mac, and Text only or RTF-like.
“GrandView was probably the last great DOS-based outliner; RTF-like. Worked well through Win 2000, and for some Win XP.
NoteMap for Windows had promise but development discontinued and it had bugs, including one that could lose your material.”
The high end of single-pane outliners is an over-priced product from LexisNexis called NoteMap. It’s not clear from their site how much effort is put into developing it.
I think it’d be worthwhile to continue developing Noteliner as a single-pane product. There is still much scope to add new features, without causing bloat or losing speed. It’s possible you establish a good niche market by developing a modern, easy to use, single-pane outliner that could be readily sold.
For example, beneath a bullet point it would be nice to have in-line paragraphs that belong to a particular point. That would allow for additional information to be added to a point, or to use Noteliner as a writing tool. In-line paragraphs could be collapsed or expanded, in other words, so the user would have the choice of seeing the bullet point(s) only, or a point(s) plus the in-line material beneath it (them).
A small point: I think the look of Noteliner would perhaps be better if the second line of a bullet point was alligned with the first line, rather than being outdented to align with the bullet above it.
I would also like the links in Noteliner to open a file in one step without having to click on the link, and then to click on “open.”
One feature that Planz has is that it provides a date heading for each day in the year. When a particular day turns up, the date heading adds the word TODAY. It is kind of a nice feature, very handy.
I enjoy the way you have the filter set up, as well as tags. I wonder if there is scope for expanding the filter feature, or allowing us to define new filters.
The application of tables in the current beta is quite clever.
Anyhow, thank for your work on Noteliner, and for being so responsive here.
Daly
Sam Hawksworth wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>I agree that there is always a danger that existing users have become used to
>the current approach. However, if there is an industry standard that switches things
>around a bit then it is probably better in the long run. The “hoist” concept is a better
>way of thinking about “focusing”. I put the two changes that I mentioned on the site
>this morning.
>
>Steve Zeoli was kind enough to send me some screen shots of Ecco so I
>understood what you were referencing. It made me think that, in some ways, Noteliner
>has outgrown the original concept of a simple single pane todo-outliner. It’s being
>used in many ways that I never originally envisioned. As such, I think it probably does
>need an improved navigation system, like a pane of folders on the left. It is a shame to
>move away from the single pane outliner (although that would still be an option), but I
>think that is what I’m going to try to do for 3.3.
>
>Sam
Posted by Cassius
Jul 8, 2011 at 06:31 AM
Sam,
1.
As Daly de Gagne quoted me, I took another look at NoteMap on the CaseSoft Web site.
There is a slightly new version, but it’s only a new build: My version was 2.10.011. The current version is 2.10.12.2. I’m not trying it, as I permanently lost quite a bit of text with 2.10.011.
2.
Perhaps those of us who are expert in Ecco (not me!), or GrandView (me) can, bit-by-bit tell you about those features that we think are especially useful.
Here’s a navigation feature in GrandView that I’ve not seen elsewhere.” GrandView had a very complex/unusual format structure, so it may be impossible to implement this in Noteliner.
“Force right” and “force left” moves an outline item to the right or left without moving anything else.
Example:
A. Now
....1. is
....2. the
.......a. time
B. for
If we force right “2,” we get
A. Now
....1. is
,,,,,,,,a. the
........b. time
B. for
If, instead, we force left “2,” we get
A. Now
....1. is
B. the
....1.. time
C. for
(In this second case, the “time” does move to the left in order to keep the outline structure without a missing level between “the” and “time.”)
-Cassius
-cassius
Posted by Daly de Gagne
Jul 8, 2011 at 01:24 PM
Cassius, did you ever contact NoteMap about the data loss? If so, I’d be interested in knowing what their response was.
Also, do you remember what you paid for NoteMap? I couldn’t find a price for it anywhere on their site yesterday.
Thanks.
Daly
Posted by CRC
Jul 8, 2011 at 03:40 PM
Cassius:
Not to keep this thread too far off topic, where did you find Notemap 2.10.12.2? I have Notemap and if I do a “web update” it says that I have the current version (2.1.0.11). In the about box it says “Version 2.1 (Build 011)”
Thanks!
Charles
Posted by Sam Hawksworth
Jul 8, 2011 at 05:15 PM
Hi Daly,
Thanks for providing the perspectives on different tools, I think the main reason I continue with Noteliner is that it does have all the features that I need, and I do use (almost) all. And lets face it, I enjoy the coding, its a hobby.
After giving the two pane idea some thought and doing some research I agree it is not the right direction. I’m not so much concerned about the competition but the loss of immediacy and simplicity. However, I do think that Noteliner has grown (at least my main file has grown) beyond the simple todo outliner that it started as and that some improved navigation is needed. I’m thinking a hide-able read-only dialog-bar on the side of the window that would show part of the tree and allow you to jump to (hoist) different parts of the outline. What do you think?
In terms of your more detailed ideas, I’m trying to decide which to include in 3.2, which I want to release ASAP, and what to put in 3.3 along with the above. Here is what I’m thinking:
- I agree that the more traditional approach of having the bullet stand free of the paragraph should at least be an option for a document (I originally avoided it to improve real-estate usage on my 1995 CRT.) [3.3]
- I agree that the option of not indenting a page would a good one. This would give you the inline paragraphs, but would also make it harder to understand the parent-child relationship. [3.3]
- I was thinking about your idea of opening links with just one click today. You are right I think in that you only enter the link once, but you click it may times. [3.3]
- In terms of defining your own filters are you saying that you might want to save a filter for quick access: like a search for the words “due date”?
- The “today” idea is a nice one. Can also do “yesterday” and “tomorrow”. [3.2]
Best,
Sam