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ADM: Eric's Resignation from Advanced data Management
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Posted by Daly de Gagne
Mar 10, 2007 at 01:57 AM
Stephen R. Diamond wrote:
>Hi Cassius,
>
>I don’t think I know you, so perhaps if I indicate why I think your
>perceptions on this is unrealistic, I can make my point with greater seeming
>objectivity than with Daly, whom I know well enough to get irritated with.
Stephen, that’s a great line about knowing me well enough to be irritated with.! I know this will come as no surprise to you, but Ihave had the occasional person say they haven’t needed to know me very well to get irritated with me.
I’m glad you’re back here writing.
While I might wish to be more agreeable at the outset, simply to be less irritating, my general response to your post is that little of what you say to Cassius about unrealistic perceptions reflect the actual perceptions I expressed in my post.
In other words, I am generally agreeing you—I double checked and, honest, I am!
>So here it
>is. The Dave Winer matter involved absolutely no legal obligations by Dave. We had no
>contract with him and no legal right to rely on the continued operation.
Agreed.
>
>ADM
>licenses were sold through a contract of sale, whether implied, oral, or written. As a
>partner in ADM, Eric STILL has a DUTY to deliver the product to those paying for it or at
>least refund the money. This remains true even if he separates himself from the
>partnership. Even if he negotiates with Arne that Arne will assume all the financial
>obligations, they remain Eric’s. His terms of separation with Arne is between them,
>and is no concern for purchasers with uncompleted transactions.
I generally agree. I do have questions that you as a lawyer may be able to shed light on. In this case, which law prevails: Canadian law, American law, or Chinese law? Is it possible for Arne, depending on the basis of Eric’s resignation which, I suspect was not completely voluntary, to in essence take over Eric’s responsibilities to the customer base and/or any other financial obligations?
If I understand your point in the quote above, itis that if Arne had assumed all financial obligations but, for whatever reason, failed to fulfil those obligations, Eric would still be liable and a suit could be placed against him. Is that correct.
>
>I see also no
>similarity with CaseSoft. Lexis Nexis bought the whole company. NoteMap was not a
>highly successful product, but the other products have become legal mainstays.
>CaseSoft was successful, profitable, and made products just about everyone
>liked.
I agree. I had seen no where any indication that CaseSoft was suffering. As well, I believe that Lexis Nexis, and the publishing monolith of which it is part, has generally grown by buying up the profitable work of others, approaching monopoly status wherever it can, and setting prices as high as the market will tolerate. While perfectly good business, I have a moral issue with profiteering on the sale ofknowledge to those at the university level especially.
>
>Both of these comparisons are so mind boggling to me, that, as I said, the
>thinking they represent is somewhat scary.
Please note that in my perceptions, no matter how scary, no matter how unrealistic, I never made these comparisons.
>Coming from intelligent people, it is
>chilling. ADM is a product with an unknown number of dissatisfied buyers who have not
>been given what they contracted for. Who is going to want to take on that obligation?
>And pay to take it on, no less.
Good questions, but surely the answers depend in part, at least, on the numbers involved. We do not know how many people actually paid for betas. We also do not know the costs of bringing ADM 4 to genuine market readiness, or even whether ADM wqill figure out how to make a decent web and a good marketing campaign in time for version 4.
>The coding must be largely redone. They would be buying an
>idea, which in any event cannot be patented. If someone wants to build an ADM by another
>name, they can go ahead, as long as they don’t steal code. Who wants that code?
Again, we do not know how much of the coding was done already. If much of it has been done, and it is a question of finishing the job, it may not be a bad deal. Enough time has gone by that much of the recoding may already have been done.
To make ADM by another name, without stealing code, and without making it look like an ADM clone would presumably be more costly than buying a nearly completed, recoded product.
>
>An
>honest person would take the greatest precautions about leaving the country and
>going to China under these circumstances. Customers will readily suspect that he is
>fleeing his obligations. Whether or not this is the case, an honest person in business
>would necessarily see that these customers are kept informed.
Eric was away before the shit really hit the fan. In fact, he seems to have spent the better part of the ast five, if not the last 10, years in Korea and China. When Eric left for China a few years ago, it was to continue developing ADM there. I believe it was at the time ADM 3 was in early development states. He also mentioned he was going to be teaching English as a second language, a sign that ADM was not sufficiently well capitalized to have a full time CEO. That was a warning sign perhaps—if it was, I missed it. My web searches indicate that Eric placed a lot of emphasis on teaching ESL, and perhaps other kinds of consulting work related to social change. One intriging reference I found relates to him introducing himself to someone by another name, then saying that was his alias.
I have been able to find no reference to ADM(C) on search engines that I am able to read. There may be reference on Chinese language search engines.
What Arne is left with is a business that has essentially become a Chinese operation. In addition to obligations to English-speaking users, there is also the question of the Chinese version of ADM.
I know it was downloadable for a bit—and I think Jan may have downloaded it.
What obligations exist around ADM(C), for Chinese.
Does ADM owe customers or suppliers with re to ADM(C)?
Is it possible that ADM(C) has been broken off, and sold or given to Chinese principals?
And yet another question I have, and that is the extent to which Eric’s idealism may have been compromised by some China’s tendency to authoritarianism and not tolerating opposition? He did say that the decision to change a non-moderated forum that no one was using to a moderated forum came after watching a tv show—presumably it wasn’t Larry King Live.
I don’t expect you or anyone at this stage to have answers to these questions, but my point is that there are many unanswered questions.
Daly
Posted by Jan Rifkinson
Mar 10, 2007 at 02:12 AM
Kenneth Rhee wrote:
>I’m not sure at this point I would be that optimistic. I will have to wait and see what happens next.
>
>In the meantime, I’ve moved onto UltraRecall3, and with the a few new features (such as hoisting, custom
>labeling of flags, and outlook sync), I’m happy with the program so far.
Me, too, Ken. It would take a lot for me to rely on ADM again—if ever. A v4 won’t do it. Maybe a v5.
I’ve begun moving my data over from ADM & I’m less concerned now because I know I can get my data out of URp w relative ease if need be down the line.
Kyle has been extremely conscientious on the support side & I think Kinook has produced a pretty slick product. Given my recent experiences w ADM, I have to give them a lot of credit on both counts.
Nevertheless, I hope Arne—or whomever—can salvage ADM & take it into the future.
Nice to hear from you, Ken…. & Dominik, too. It feels like old home week.
Jan
Posted by Daly de Gagne
Mar 10, 2007 at 02:47 AM
Jan, does this mean you’re not going to use MyInfo—or simply, as you have said before, you’ll wait until the next version?
Also, you had said earlier you had been using ADM for a lot of stuff—what was it that finally shifted you to Ultra Recall?
On a personal note, even though I do not no use UR, during the version 3 beta discussions I was one of the people pushing for a hoist command. Kinook kind of dug in their heals, and said no way. Under fairly constant pressure, Kinook changed their position, and provided v 3 with hoist capability.
I take my hat off to Kinook for their ability to do that. In my own tests of v 3 it sure makes it more user friendly. And I may go back to using it for some things.
Kinook has been one of the best software companies in terms of customer relations. And it is obviously paying off for them.
Daly
Jan Rifkinson wrote:
>Kenneth Rhee wrote:
>>I’m not sure at this point I would be that optimistic. I will have
>to wait and see what happens next.
>>
>>In the meantime, I’ve moved onto UltraRecall3,
>and with the a few new features (such as hoisting, custom
>>labeling of flags, and
>outlook sync), I’m happy with the program so far.
>
>Me, too, Ken. It would take a lot for
>me to rely on ADM again—if ever. A v4 won’t do it. Maybe a v5.
>
>I’ve begun moving my data
>over from ADM & I’m less concerned now because I know I can get my data out of URp w
>relative ease if need be down the line.
>
>Kyle has been extremely conscientious on the
>support side & I think Kinook has produced a pretty slick product. Given my recent
>experiences w ADM, I have to give them a lot of credit on both counts.
>
>Nevertheless, I
>hope Arne—or whomever—can salvage ADM & take it into the future.
>
>Nice to hear from
>you, Ken…. & Dominik, too. It feels like old home week.
>
>Jan
Posted by Cassius
Mar 10, 2007 at 04:27 AM
In responding to my post, S.D. made a number of valid points.
I didn’t realize (or is it remember?) that L-N had bought all of CaseSoft. My example, therefore, is invalid, although a sale or cash infusion for a share of the company is still possible. Maybe there’s someone wealthy our there who collects small software companies the way some collect beer cans??
The point I was trying to make about Dave W., was that some people condemned him, even knowing that what he did for us was at no cost to us but certainly was a cost to him. [Every day Yenkel the business man would give Itzak, the beggar, a few coins. One day, Yenkel didn’t give Itzak any coins. Itzak stopped Yenkel, demanding the usual donation. Yenkel said, “Itzak, I’m sorry, but today business was very bad.” Itzak replied,“So you had a bad day. Does that mean I should suffer?]
Certainly people who paid for the Beta are due a refund, perhaps with interest.
In the U.S., the standard practice when a business changes hands, is for the new owner to assume responsibility for the obligations of the former owner.
-c
Posted by Jan Rifkinson
Mar 10, 2007 at 04:33 AM
Daly de Gagne wrote:
>Jan, does this mean you’re not going to use MyInfo—or simply, as you have said before,
>you’ll wait until the next version?
I’m waiting for v4 but I’m currently quite pleased w my UR experience.
>Also, you had said earlier you had been using ADM
>for a lot of stuff—what was it that finally shifted you to Ultra Recall?
Yes, until recently, I was using ADM for everything on a daily basis w/o problems even tho I’ve wanted to get out of it for a while for all the reasons discussed in detail on other threads.
Problem was I couldn’t find a good substitute. Except for a few things UR v3 currently fits the bill for my needs. One of the things that makes it extra useful to me is it’s calendar functions as I’m a list maker & constantly need reminders, etc.to stay organized.
Although URp was a little tricky for me, once I understood the basic concept, it became very easy for me to mold it to my own uses.
>On a
>personal note, even though I do not no use UR, during the version 3 beta discussions I
>was one of the people pushing for a hoist command. Kinook kind of dug in their heals, and
>said no way. Under fairly constant pressure, Kinook changed their position, and
>provided v 3 with hoist capability.
Petko (MyInfo) has been pretty rigid about including any kind of calendar/date/time function which was another thing that got me back to URp but we’ll see….
>I take my hat off to Kinook for their ability to do
>that. In my own tests of v 3 it sure makes it more user friendly. And I may go back to using
>it for some things.
I think unlike you & maybe others, I ‘m trying to find an all-in-one product. So far so good with URp. It makes me crazy that I still have data in Agenda, Zoot, Ecco Pro & ADM but I’m slowly co-ordinating it all.
>Kinook has been one of the best software companies in terms of
>customer relations. And it is obviously paying off for them.
Take a look @ their client roster. They may not all be for UR but even if half of them are for real—and I have absolutely no reason to doubt that *all* of them are for real—they’re definitely a grown up company, doing something right. I’ve been pleased with their attention to detail..
Jan