For those who may be interested, mac.appstorm has posted my overview of the new features in Scrivener 2.0. You can find it here:

http://mac.appstorm.net/reviews/office-review/take-control-of-your-writing-with-scrivener-2-0/

Steve

Thanks Steve.

I found the review informative and useful even though I use Scrivener for hours every day. And in my view the application fully deserves the rating you give it.

H

Great review. And I agree with you and Hugh: 10 points out of 10 is fully justified.

Thanks, Franz

Steve,
Thanks as ever for an excellent review. I am looking forward to giving the Windows beta a whirl as soon as I have some time. I'm surprised that it hasn't received much attention in the forum yet. Early days, I guess...

Have you found that Scrivener and Zoot make a sensible workflow duo? I haven't really come to grips with Zoot v.6 yet, since it does not add much to my way of working, which is mainly with plain text. But for books and articles Zoot v5 has been excellent for everything connected with information collection and management. It also provides a surprising amount of support for planning and organizing writing projects. I've been using its folder tree for years as a way of gradually sorting information and developing detailed outlines, and sequencing arguments and supporting materials; and its floating editor panes are also useful for bringing up reference material when I am drafting. As I tend to use other programs (e.g. Word or Notetab) for drafting, however, Scrivener looks to be a very appealing alternative.

Thanks for the nice comments, Hugh, Franz and Derek. Also, thanks for confirming my 10 out of 10 rating... I was worried I might just come across as a fan boy.

Derek Cornish wrote:

Have you found that
Scrivener and Zoot make a sensible workflow duo? I haven't really come to grips with
Zoot v.6 yet, since it does not add much to my way of working, which is mainly with plain
text. But for books and articles Zoot v5 has been excellent for everything connected
with information collection and management. It also provides a surprising amount of
support for planning and organizing writing projects. I've been using its folder
tree for years as a way of gradually sorting information and developing detailed
outlines, and sequencing arguments and supporting materials; and its floating
editor panes are also useful for bringing up reference material when I am drafting. As
I tend to use other programs (e.g. Word or Notetab) for drafting, however, Scrivener
looks to be a very appealing alternative.

Derek, I've only just started using Zoot 6.0. I live in a bi-operating world, with a Windows PC at work and a MacBook for personal use. Most of my writing is on the MacBook, so I haven't incorporated it into a writing work flow. At the office I mostly use Zoot for information management -- tracking invoices and such. I'm only just warming up to version 6, and miss the relative simplicity of plain text. I don't think I'll truly like version 6 until there is enough help material to actually learn to use its many features properly.

Nevertheless, I think it could easily be an exceptional asset for writing and researching for the reasons you state. And I've always been a fan of the way you can set up folders with rules and actions. I still haven't found anything on the Mac that matches it -- even Tinderbox, though Tinderbox does a lot of other things.

Finally, I downloaded the beta version of Scrivener for Windows, but it seemed too unfinished yet to really use for my work-related writing. I'm eager to give the real thing a go when it is ready.

Steve

Steve,
I'm very much with you re Zoot and plain text. I'd have been quite content if the Admiral had simply produced a new plain-text version with the constraints removed on item length, numbers of items and folders. I also liked the old, less obtrusive icons in version 5 (version 4's were even better). However, software developers have to make money to live on and the plethora of new information sources, communication devices and so on made change and increasing complexity inevitable. The disappointment over the so-called outlining feature also reduced my interest, but I am beginning to warm up to v6 now, although I still haven't moved my work to it.

As for Scrivener for Windows, it looks really interesting and my only reservation - shared in relation to ConnectedText, ndxCards, IdeaMason, and so on - is that the overlap between Zoot's and Scrivener's project and research management features will make choosing what to use for what part of the research/writing process as difficult and frustrating as it always seems to be.

Derek

Thanks for your review Steve. Made me decide to open up the Windows beta I had downloaded some time ago.

Was advised to download new beta version because version I had would expire on Dec 12.

So I donwloaded the latest beta, opened it up, and still got same message it would expire tomorrow.

Is this a common problem?

Daly

Ditto.

I don't know how you can do academic writing in the Windows beta; there is no tool for inserting citation references. Can't editing html web page. Barely can cut and paste. Outlining very clumsy. Cannot insert child or sibling levels. Keyword UHD does not work. Cool feature about creating parent, child, and sibling key words but when I dropped group into keyword pane either nothing showed or only one showed and not group as advertised. Yes I know it is a beta and I know that I have scratched only surface, but you would figure that at a minimum a word processor that advertises itself as being useable for academic writing does not make citations easy although I think in the Mac version there is a bibliographic utility.

It's my understanding that the windows version of Scrivener will generally have the feature set of version 1.5 for the Mac, at least at first. It may never be the application that the Mac version is. We'll just have to wait and see.

Steve

Mitchell,

In case you haven't seen it, here is the URL for the earlier review of Scrivener v1.5 that Steve mentioned in his review of v2.0.

http://mac.appstorm.net/reviews/office-review/scrivener-a-writers-best-friend/

Derek

Mitchell Kastner wrote:

Ditto.

I don't know how you can do academic writing in the Windows beta; there is no
tool for inserting citation references. Can't editing html web page. Barely can cut
and paste. Outlining very clumsy. Cannot insert child or sibling levels. Keyword UHD
does not work. Cool feature about creating parent, child, and sibling key words but
when I dropped group into keyword pane either nothing showed or only one showed and not
group as advertised. Yes I know it is a beta and I know that I have scratched only
surface, but you would figure that at a minimum a word processor that advertises
itself as being useable for academic writing does not make citations easy although I
think in the Mac version there is a bibliographic utility.

I also downloaded and took a quick look at the beta. The overall concept looks interesting but I also found the outlining process cumbersome. I needed to develop some quick notes and organise them hierarchically, and I found it difficult to move the topics around and up and down. Eventually I gave up and switched to Natara Bonsai, where outlining is a breeze. I'm also a Whizfolders Organizer user, and so I would be curious to know how the Mac version measures up to Whizfolders. I do like the various functions that enable you to have an easy overview of the overall project in Scrivener, however quick and easy hierarchical outlining is a must for me.

Oh, and I absolutely agree, some kind of an integration with EndNote or similar academic referencing software would be a must. That would be a huge market for this sort of software to tap into. I would venture to say that the vast majority of people writing out there on a daily basis are probably university students and academics.

I haven't downloaded the Windows beta, but as an owner of Version 2 of Scrivener for the Mac and an observer of the development of the Windows version, I'd make the following points in an effort to provide answers to some of the posts above:

- Scrivener for Windows is very much a work-in-progress. The beta was released for NaNoWriMo, but as far as I can see it still requires quite a lot of work to get it right. February is I think the "paid-for" target release date. Fun to play with, but as yet I personally wouldn't entrust important writing to it.

- The declared intention of the developers is that Windows Scrivener should have all the features of the previous version (1.54) of Scrivener for the Mac, with a few of those for the latest Mac version (2.0). If that is the case, there's every reason to think that Windows Scrivener will work hand-in-glove with commonly used citation managers. From the evidence of the forums, I can say that a number of academics use the Mac version successfully, with or without citation managers, for theses, dissertations, even preparing classes -- as well as, of course, for book-writing.

- However, it would be wrong (if you've little or no experience of the application) to see it as an outliner pure and simple. It does have outliner functions. You should certainly be able to re-arrange sections easily by drag-and-drop or keyboard as with any outliner: if not, that will only be because of temporary defects in the beta. But the key purpose of the software is as a "text drafter", helping you to gather and hold your research and put your writing together in chunks, perhaps out of sequence as a lot of people write. It has a number of tools to help you to draft text -- for example, full screen, outliner, corkboard, dual-pane editor. Perhaps because no other application has targeted this precise functionality before, it's sometimes not properly understood. It is not a word processor, although for some purposes final drafts can be prepared in it. The developer's intended workflow for most long-form purposes is Scrivener to word processor (for layout and final formatting). Sometimes you might want to use a mind-mapper or more full-bloodied standalone outliner (which, as I say, Scrivener is not) to build your outline from scratch, and then export that outline to Scrivener.

- Regarding Whizfolders: I've used Whizfolders when I worked on Windows. I still have a licence. Whizfolders is good; it has something of the idea that Scrivener has of working in chunks. But Scrivener is better, with more features dedicated to pure writing, editing and revising (such as dual-pane editing, full-screen, the ability to hold research in other formats such as pdfs, the ability to work in a font and format which suits screen-work and then export or print in a different format altogether).

One further point: if you're interested in using Scrivener for Windows, for example as a tool for academic work, it would be well worth having a good look at the Literature & Latte forum, even if you don't download the application right now. There are many threads on different uses for the application, and a wealth of information on other software suitable for writing, mostly at the moment Mac software, but I guess in the future Windows software as well. There are at least two active threads at this moment dealing with aspects of academic uses for Scrivener. Some of the posts of course are specific to the latest Mac version but many have general applicability. (The forum itself is a web phenomenon. You will come across academics, authors with books out and software experts with a great breadth of knowledge. It ranks alongside OutlinerSoftware.com as one of the friendliest and most helpful forums in this area on the Internet. The Literature & Latte forum is part of the value of Scrivener.)

I hope this helps somewhat.
H

Hugh,

thank you, that's all very helpful.

doctorandus

Just to add one thought to Hugh's comments about Scrivener's outlining functions, it is worth noting that Scrivener is really two outliners in one. The Binder is one outline as some programs, including Whizfolders, define outlines, allowing you to develop hierarchical structure for your project. But then there is also the "outliner," which takes outlining a step further than that. But the "outliner" only shows items that are subordinate to the currently selected item in the Binder. In outliner terms, it is a hoist function. I find the Mac version outline pretty powerful and easy to use. I haven't used the Windows version enough to comment on it.

Steve