We've just started playing with the really very impressive Kerio Workspace (http://www.kerio.com/workspace For a piece of beta software, it's remarkably polished, and it's got some amazing features that make solutions like SharePoint and Alfresco look slow, dusty and over-engineered.

For all that, it's got plenty of things that could do with improvement - the Search function supports Unicode (which is great), but doesn't allow you to isolate branches/folders. It doesn't have tags or categories. It does have web preview of attached documents, though (which works amazingly fast). It does drag 'n' drop in some places, but not in others. It doesn't allow you to set new defaults (for e.g. colours, fonts etc.), nor does it support templates (yet). But for all that, it's truly impressive (apparently Kerio have been using it themselves in-house for quite a long time now, which would account for its stability).

It's not really a personal solution - although currently I'm using it as one, while I test it! It runs fast enough on my HP laptop! - but it is an exceptional example of where collaborative outlining could be going. No, I don't have any interest in the company as such! I'm just pleased to find (after exploring goodness knows how many different collaborative solutions, including wikis, CMS, DMS, intranet/extranet servers etc. etc.). I'm convinced that for corporate purposes, you really can't get away from a hierarchically organised system (hence outlining), and apart from Telepark Wiki, for which I have a residual fondness, this is by far the best attempt at a convenient solution I've come across.

Plus it's cross-platform (yup, Windows, Mac 'n' Linux too!).

Actually, I've just realised that according to Steve's definition (in his OmniOutliner review), Kerio Workspace is not a "true" outliner at all. It uses folders, it doesn't hoist, it focuses primarily on the editor (although actually, that's disputable). On the other hand, pages can be broken up into multiple sections and data types, so from an information-handling viewpoint, it has many of the advantages of a properly defined outliner. Oh, and a great Search function.

In any case, judging by some of the other applications that have appeared in these pages, I think I can safely assume it will be of interest nevertheless... ;-)

Thanks for the heads up on both Kerio Workspace and Telepark Wiki; it is precisely the kind of tools I am looking for at the moment, as we need a more collaborative environment in my company.

I have tested numerous offerings until now and I must say that, given the enormous choice of software and webware out there, very few actually stand out --often only for specific features which are not found elsewhere. A case in point is SocialText's collaborative spreadsheet SocialCalc http://www.socialtext.com/products/spreadsheets.php

Can you tell me how you use Kerio as a personal solution? You only install the client, without the server?

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

I have tested numerous offerings until now and I must say
that, given the enormous choice of software and webware out there, very few actually
stand out --often only for specific features which are not found elsewhere. A case in
point is SocialText's collaborative spreadsheet SocialCalc
http://www.socialtext.com/products/spreadsheets.php

In casual use, I found this program to be interesting: http://www.smartsheet.com/ . They used to have a free subscription, but I do not believe that it is offered anymore. But, there is a 30-day free trial. I do not know if it will meet your needs, but I thought it was a bit different from much of what is out there.

--Ken

Sorry, Alexander, didn't see your question: no, you install the entire server, then access it through http://localhost (it uses the default web ports 80 and 443). It's very, very quick, so you wouldn't know you're using a server-based system at all. It's quick over the network, too - I've rolled out the beta for further testing, and we've put the host on an elderly Lenovo laptop (the screen died, but the notebook still runs well). The impressive part is, I've got colleagues accessing it over the web (via HTTPS) and through our SSH virtual private network, and they're finding it runs really fast, too. When I'm out of the office I access the office version myself on my Asus 1101HA netbook over a 3G connection, and I can honestly say it's difficult to tell it's remote-hosted. On a laptop, remember!

The fastest version we've used so far is the Ubuntu/Debian version (which is what we've installed on the laptop), but the Windows one doesn't hang about either. The closest thing I can compare it to for enjoyment is Luminotes, but it's much more powerful. On the other hand, it's also commercial, and Kerio haven't told anybody what they're charging yet (though I'm cultivating one of their support staff, who's promised to let me know as soon as he does!).

Thanks! I've actually been trying it out these last few days, and am impressed. I went for a network installation straight away --at home first on a Linux machine, and then at the office on a shared Windows PC. It is fast indeed. I have not tried it over internet yet.

I think your original post sums it up well; the simplicity, power and intuitiveness of Kerio's interface are exemplary. I have refrained from suggesting other shared 'knowledge base' solutions, e.g. wikis, Sharepoint and the like, because I found them too cumbersome and long winded in their approach, and with a rather sharp learning curve. I always thought that there must be a simpler way, and I was right.

The main thing now is the cost and support. When you learn about their business plans, please post some info --you can reach me privately at adeliyannis [at] gmail [dot] com. I need to know if I'm betting on the right horse.

Yes, I'm anxious about that, too! There are a couple of serious lacks that need sorting out before I shall be 100% reassured: although the system automatically backs itself up, there doesn't appear to be any way to restore it(!). And while it automatically checks for upgrades/updates - it doesn't automatically install them!

But it's so polished otherwise - and other Kerio products have such a good reputation - that I suspect this will all be sorted out fairly quickly. At the moment they're talking about a gold release sometime in Q1 2011.

Well, I see Kerio Workspace is officially out of beta and that the price is quite attractive for an SME http://www.kerio.com/workspace/buy

(I'm sure Bill has seen this already, but I beat him to announcing it)

You're quite right, Alexander - and yes, we're running the latest release here, as a matter of fact.

Much slimmed down, still with one significant flaw (which I've made them aware of to the extent that the poor developers are begging me to wait!) but - as ever - very, very fast (we still haven't transferred it from the test laptop we installed it on originally - you honestly don't notice that it's not running on a proper machine!).

The flaw, which has to do with the way the search engine treats components in a page, is not too problematic, and the sheer speed and convenience of the excellent search function makes up for it, not least because the Solr/Lucene/Hibernate combo they use appears to be quite happy finding bits of text (i.e. not just full words), word stems (in a wide variety of languages) and Boolean phrases (provided they don't straddle multiple components on a page) at enormous speed. Very impressive, and thoroughly recommended (as is the document preview function, provided courtesy of OpenOffice filters built into the server).

They've also tidied up the comments and "news" functions, which are much more manageable than before. And the price really is reasonable. I'm just looking forward to the 'Advanced Search' function I'm sure they'll be including soon (if only to stop me harassing them!).

Cheers,
Bill

Workflowy.com is interesting in that it has some unique UI design - zooming user interface, specifically - and it has inspired me as a developer of another outliner software.

But it's still at its primitive stage, I think.


---
Edwin Yip
Turn MS Word into a full-featured outliner software for writing large documents.
http://WritingOutliner.com

MadaboutDana wrote:

In any
case, judging by some of the other applications that have appeared in these pages, I
think I can safely assume it will be of interest nevertheless... ;-)

From the Dutch makers of a very interesting task management tool, Thymer, comes a new platform for collaborative knowledge building. It's called Papyrs and you can ask for a beta invitation at http://www.papyrs.com/

I'm posting it here as it seems relevant to the discussion, even though it is also not a real outliner (but in my eyes it's much better than a wiki)

Thanks for the ref, Alexander - looks very interesting and very attractive (not dissimilar to Vialect's Noodle), but manages to infuriate me by failing to mention 'Search' at all. Why is it that people put together lovely collaborative platforms but totally fail to focus on search? Look at fascinating products like eyeOS or SohoOS - yes, they have 'search', but no, it's not full-text, and doesn't have any sophisticated options. Knowledge management without search is like, well, I dunno, Sauron without his Ring, perhaps (oh dear, geeky analogy of the week - quick, shoot me, somebody, I was watching Die Hard 4 over the weekend and see? that's what happens...). It's my major issue with Kerio Workspace, too - it's got an amazing search engine (really fast 'n' powerful), and supports Boolean searches, BUT - and it's a big but - if you've got multiple "components" on a page, any search you run won't correlate data between the different components (on the same page). Quick example. Say you've got a page with a single text component which includes the words "Google" and "apps" in it: if you put together a search query:

+google +apps

then that page will appear in the search results. But if you've got a page with TWO text components, one of which has the word "Google" in it, and the other of which has the word "apps" in it, then the same search query will come up with zero results. That's pretty silly!

Search is a very difficult thing to get right, but it's also crucial. Until we start working in 100% semantic environments, search is an essential adjunct to any kind of knowledge management solution.

End of rant!
Bill

FYI, Papyrs now has search, and actually a rather good one apparently http://blog.stunf.com/search-for-papyrs-and-more/

FYI, Papyrs has just launched http://www.papyrs.com/signup/

If anybody's interested in signing up, I have a 10% reduction code to give. Just mail me at adeliyannis [at] gmail [dot] com

Alexander Deliyannis wrote:

FYI, Papyrs has just launched http://www.papyrs.com/signup/

This reminds me of a service I used back around 2000 called teamon.com. It pretty much provided all these things, plus email, and the free version was good enough for setting up a small team. It became my main email platform and workspace, until 2 yrs later they closed down. I had to wait for several years before Google started offering something similar (Google Doc etc.). The moral of the story? I guess I've become cagier in giving my life over to new services. On the other hand we need innovation on the fringes. But what is new exactly with Papyrs? On the face of it it looks very similar to Google Docs and whatever the Microsoft equivalent is...

Dr Andus wrote:

On the face of it it looks very similar to Google Docs and whatever the Microsoft
equivalent is...

I'd say it looks similar to Google Sites, not Docs (word processor, spreadsheet, presentations). And by Microsoft equivalent I expect you mean Sharepoint.

Indeed. The concept is very similar (it is after all a kind of intranet, with the possibility of making parts of it public). However, there are many such offerings in the market which means that Google and Microsoft have not managed to monopolise the market. In my company we rely in the Google Apps infrastructure, but don't find the Google sites offering convenient to use.

Papyrs' selling point seems to be simplicity, and I believe it is indeed very simple to use, while still providing good functionality.

Re your point on reliability of such innovative products: I am myself weary of anything 'free' and choose to pay the premium for most webware I use professionally. I feel quite confident with this strategy, though even this way, on one occasion, I was let down: online diskspace service drop.io shut down while I was still a paying user. So I go for the convenience of the online products I like, but keep local copies of just about everything...