Profound Disappointment
Started by Daly de Gagne
on 8/9/2010
Daly de Gagne
8/9/2010 8:16 pm
As I continue to explore programs here on my new Mac, a very profound kind of disappointment is growing.
Quite honestly, I came back to the Mac with a great deal of optimism that programs, especially the information programs, would be better. All in all, I do not see that they are. I've already ranted about that, and my opinion that Mac developers are coasting on Apple's laurels.
The word processing options seem about the same as in PC world.
Perhaps if I could figure out "services" I could understand why some programs seem to have them and others do not.
The computer itself feels solid, and has not crashed once. I like the feel and the look of it.
But for this I paid a few hundred dollars more than I could have for a new Windows 7 machine.
In spite of my frustrations with both MyInfo and UltraRecall for some of their development quirks, they look far better to me now, having explored the Mac equivalents.
EN seems better in the Mac, except so far I haven't found a universal clipping pane which operates as highlight and click - I have to highlight, copy, and then click.
And I do like the single pane for text in OmniOutliner - but the lack of built-in ability to make a bullet list in the text, lack of links, lack of tags, outweighs what is done right. And since the in-line text can become long, a fold feature would be ideal.
So I have a couple of days - do I keep the Mac, or do I ask Staples for my money back, and get a PC?
Would someone please remind me of what the advantages of a Mac are, again?
I apologize for sounding the way I do - for weeks I had been looking forward to this purchase. And no amount of my rationalizing to myself is helping me to avert the disappointment. If I am doing something wrong, please tell me.
Honestly, I am not sure what I should do.
I find myself missing Windows programs which, while not perfect, seem to be a little more thought out - DevonThink looks powerful, but between EverNote and Surfulater, is it worth the cost of a Mac? NoteBook comes close, and so does OmniOutline - but frankly, MyInfo can do what I want better to my mind than scuttling back and forth between NB and OO. As long as I have no illusions about using MyInfo for web-related material, which is where its the least well thought out. But I am used to EN and Surfulater for that already.
Perhaps I should bite the bullet - and get Parallels and a copy of Windows 7 for the Mac.
Thanks for any input.
Daly
Quite honestly, I came back to the Mac with a great deal of optimism that programs, especially the information programs, would be better. All in all, I do not see that they are. I've already ranted about that, and my opinion that Mac developers are coasting on Apple's laurels.
The word processing options seem about the same as in PC world.
Perhaps if I could figure out "services" I could understand why some programs seem to have them and others do not.
The computer itself feels solid, and has not crashed once. I like the feel and the look of it.
But for this I paid a few hundred dollars more than I could have for a new Windows 7 machine.
In spite of my frustrations with both MyInfo and UltraRecall for some of their development quirks, they look far better to me now, having explored the Mac equivalents.
EN seems better in the Mac, except so far I haven't found a universal clipping pane which operates as highlight and click - I have to highlight, copy, and then click.
And I do like the single pane for text in OmniOutliner - but the lack of built-in ability to make a bullet list in the text, lack of links, lack of tags, outweighs what is done right. And since the in-line text can become long, a fold feature would be ideal.
So I have a couple of days - do I keep the Mac, or do I ask Staples for my money back, and get a PC?
Would someone please remind me of what the advantages of a Mac are, again?
I apologize for sounding the way I do - for weeks I had been looking forward to this purchase. And no amount of my rationalizing to myself is helping me to avert the disappointment. If I am doing something wrong, please tell me.
Honestly, I am not sure what I should do.
I find myself missing Windows programs which, while not perfect, seem to be a little more thought out - DevonThink looks powerful, but between EverNote and Surfulater, is it worth the cost of a Mac? NoteBook comes close, and so does OmniOutline - but frankly, MyInfo can do what I want better to my mind than scuttling back and forth between NB and OO. As long as I have no illusions about using MyInfo for web-related material, which is where its the least well thought out. But I am used to EN and Surfulater for that already.
Perhaps I should bite the bullet - and get Parallels and a copy of Windows 7 for the Mac.
Thanks for any input.
Daly
Wes Perdue
8/9/2010 8:49 pm
Daly,
I think a false expectation may be leading to your disappointment. There are different philosophies on the two platforms, and you seem to not be allowing yourself enough time to adapt to the Mac app design philosophy.
PC apps seem to have a a kitchen-sink approach; that is, they just keep adding features until the apps are unwieldy. Mac apps tend to be more like a well-designed Unix utility: they do one thing well, are well-defined, and work perfectly.
I started my Mac adventure about two and a half years ago. It took six months before I started feeling comfortable with my Mac, and it took me a year to let go of my PC. I am now so in love with my Mac that you'd have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
I'm a sys admin, with many years experience in Windows, Solaris, and Linux. I've been using DOS/Windows professionally since MS-DOS 3.3. I've used Windows more than any other platform. It took me a very long time to unlearn it and adapt to my Mac. I assure you that the journey for me was worth it; I expect it'll be the same for you.
Please give it more time. If you are too uncomfortable, go back to Windows 7. It's not that bad an OS. However, the Mac is a much more elegant tool, as are its best apps.
Regards,
Wes
I think a false expectation may be leading to your disappointment. There are different philosophies on the two platforms, and you seem to not be allowing yourself enough time to adapt to the Mac app design philosophy.
PC apps seem to have a a kitchen-sink approach; that is, they just keep adding features until the apps are unwieldy. Mac apps tend to be more like a well-designed Unix utility: they do one thing well, are well-defined, and work perfectly.
I started my Mac adventure about two and a half years ago. It took six months before I started feeling comfortable with my Mac, and it took me a year to let go of my PC. I am now so in love with my Mac that you'd have to pry it from my cold, dead hands.
I'm a sys admin, with many years experience in Windows, Solaris, and Linux. I've been using DOS/Windows professionally since MS-DOS 3.3. I've used Windows more than any other platform. It took me a very long time to unlearn it and adapt to my Mac. I assure you that the journey for me was worth it; I expect it'll be the same for you.
Please give it more time. If you are too uncomfortable, go back to Windows 7. It's not that bad an OS. However, the Mac is a much more elegant tool, as are its best apps.
Regards,
Wes
Harlander
8/9/2010 9:11 pm
Daly,
sorry for raising my voice, as I am just a lurker, but I think it also has to do whether the programs available for the Mac simply fit your needs... For myself I haven't found anything in the windows world that would even come close to DevonThink, as I have to handle lots of documents and the inherent AI is worth every penny of my Mac. All my outlining, linking, analyzing etc. is done in Tinderbox, another program I cannot live without. Then there is the excellent Curio, again without counterpart in the windows world. I left Windows behind three years ago and I have never looked back since. But as Wes pointed out, I think it is better to have different programs that each do one thing very good and thus complement one another than to have only one, that does all of it just a little bit and lacks in every other area. Let your expectations rise too high and you will be disappointed. It took time to get to know the OS, but after all the frustration with Windows I thought I might as well give it a chance. And step by step it all made sence - even services... And then, there is still VMWare Fusion and Parallels, so I can still use connectedtext and citavi whenever I need it. So, nothing's lost with a Mac...
Regards,
Andreas
sorry for raising my voice, as I am just a lurker, but I think it also has to do whether the programs available for the Mac simply fit your needs... For myself I haven't found anything in the windows world that would even come close to DevonThink, as I have to handle lots of documents and the inherent AI is worth every penny of my Mac. All my outlining, linking, analyzing etc. is done in Tinderbox, another program I cannot live without. Then there is the excellent Curio, again without counterpart in the windows world. I left Windows behind three years ago and I have never looked back since. But as Wes pointed out, I think it is better to have different programs that each do one thing very good and thus complement one another than to have only one, that does all of it just a little bit and lacks in every other area. Let your expectations rise too high and you will be disappointed. It took time to get to know the OS, but after all the frustration with Windows I thought I might as well give it a chance. And step by step it all made sence - even services... And then, there is still VMWare Fusion and Parallels, so I can still use connectedtext and citavi whenever I need it. So, nothing's lost with a Mac...
Regards,
Andreas
quant
8/9/2010 10:11 pm
"But as Wes pointed out, I think it is better to have different programs that each do one thing very good and thus complement one another than to have only one, that does all of it just a little bit and lacks in every other area."
I think otherwise, as far as PIM software is concerned. I think is far better to live with small deficiencies in some of the arreas, but have ALL the info under one hood. At the same time, this allows one to understand the chosen soft and become master of it.
I think otherwise, as far as PIM software is concerned. I think is far better to live with small deficiencies in some of the arreas, but have ALL the info under one hood. At the same time, this allows one to understand the chosen soft and become master of it.
Manfred
8/9/2010 10:25 pm
Andreas,
why raise one's voice at all? There is nothing inherently wrong with Windows 7, and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Mac. They are different, and some will like the Mac, others will like the PC. It's not a religious issue either.
I tried out the Mac a few years ago, and I went back after a year. One of the reasons was that I found that many of applications that sounded so great when I had no access to them, actually did not look so great when I tried them. Voodoopad was very disappointing (especially the search feature). Tinderbox was extremely unintuitive and downright cumbersome to use. I gave it an effort, but it did not give me much back for that effort. And DevonThink, after which I had lusted after most, could not even open more than one database. The search feature was a lot better than that of Voodoopad, but really not any better than what I was used from ConnectedText.
Having said that, I really liked Mellel. It was/is the best word processor I have ever worked with. The outliners were also better (and Opal did not even exist at this point). Still, it was not enough to keep me from going back.
I think it is a question "whether the programs available for the Mac simply fit your needs." And they did not. No hard feelings, but diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
Manfred
why raise one's voice at all? There is nothing inherently wrong with Windows 7, and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Mac. They are different, and some will like the Mac, others will like the PC. It's not a religious issue either.
I tried out the Mac a few years ago, and I went back after a year. One of the reasons was that I found that many of applications that sounded so great when I had no access to them, actually did not look so great when I tried them. Voodoopad was very disappointing (especially the search feature). Tinderbox was extremely unintuitive and downright cumbersome to use. I gave it an effort, but it did not give me much back for that effort. And DevonThink, after which I had lusted after most, could not even open more than one database. The search feature was a lot better than that of Voodoopad, but really not any better than what I was used from ConnectedText.
Having said that, I really liked Mellel. It was/is the best word processor I have ever worked with. The outliners were also better (and Opal did not even exist at this point). Still, it was not enough to keep me from going back.
I think it is a question "whether the programs available for the Mac simply fit your needs." And they did not. No hard feelings, but diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.
Manfred
Harlander
8/9/2010 10:49 pm
You are absolutely right, Manfred, and I really didn't want to sound as if I was religiously defending the Mac. I am no fanboy... I think it's overpriced, but in the end, it just fits. I had a hard time with Tinderbox, but once in my workflow, it was fine. What I like about DevonThink is it's stability. I have a database that contains about 400.000 documents (no kidding, it was a library of electronic texts that I have imported) and though it's not as snappy as it used to be, it runs just fine. It sort of reminds me of InfoSelect, back in the old days... But I wouldn't compare it to ConnectedText as importing various document types (word, excel, pdf etc.) does not belong to CT's strengths. VoodooPad was a major disappointment and you are right, reading other peoples praises about certain programs just isn't a substitute for actually using them. Never believe the hype ;-) ( nor the slander...)
Andreas
Andreas
Daly de Gagne
8/9/2010 10:52 pm
Wes, thanks to you and the others for giving me some push-back on this. I do appreciate it - if anything, having cut my computer teeth on the Mac in the 90s until 2002, I may have set my expectations too high, or in the wrong places.
I agree with you about the kitchen sink approach, the feature bloat. Yet, I cannot understand the distinct lack of some features on some of the outliner programs. And, in fact, I do not find a sense of Mac programs working any more perfectly than PC. Yes, I would rather use NoteBook on the Mac than OneNote. But why am I looking at NoteBook? because of lack of features in OmniOutliner, and an apparent ability to get Mori or Neo to work according to the claims they make. Perhaps the problem is not with the software, but with the way manuals are written. But...it is frustrating.
All of a sudden, programs such as MyInfo start to look better.
I've realized that on the Mac the easiest, fastest way for me to gather information and have it automatically backed up is EverNote. For that, I do not need a Mac.
Mac has a good reputation for outliners, but my recent experience suggests it is largely due to MORE and InControl. Opal is a good program, as was ACTA, but my need is for organzing information, as well as brief points, in an outline.
Wes, apart from the programs, what is it that makes the Mac better in your view to the PC? I love the way it feels, but I also like the way my partner's daughter's new Windows laptop feels, and I am told W7 is very stable.
What I remember from the Mac is a true elegance in software - and I have not found much of it so far, with the possible exception of DevonThink.
Daly
Wes Perdue wrote:
I agree with you about the kitchen sink approach, the feature bloat. Yet, I cannot understand the distinct lack of some features on some of the outliner programs. And, in fact, I do not find a sense of Mac programs working any more perfectly than PC. Yes, I would rather use NoteBook on the Mac than OneNote. But why am I looking at NoteBook? because of lack of features in OmniOutliner, and an apparent ability to get Mori or Neo to work according to the claims they make. Perhaps the problem is not with the software, but with the way manuals are written. But...it is frustrating.
All of a sudden, programs such as MyInfo start to look better.
I've realized that on the Mac the easiest, fastest way for me to gather information and have it automatically backed up is EverNote. For that, I do not need a Mac.
Mac has a good reputation for outliners, but my recent experience suggests it is largely due to MORE and InControl. Opal is a good program, as was ACTA, but my need is for organzing information, as well as brief points, in an outline.
Wes, apart from the programs, what is it that makes the Mac better in your view to the PC? I love the way it feels, but I also like the way my partner's daughter's new Windows laptop feels, and I am told W7 is very stable.
What I remember from the Mac is a true elegance in software - and I have not found much of it so far, with the possible exception of DevonThink.
Daly
Wes Perdue wrote:
Daly,
I think a false expectation may be leading to your disappointment. There are
different philosophies on the two platforms, and you seem to not be allowing yourself
enough time to adapt to the Mac app design philosophy.
PC apps seem to have a a
kitchen-sink approach; that is, they just keep adding features until the apps are
unwieldy. Mac apps tend to be more like a well-designed Unix utility: they do one thing
well, are well-defined, and work perfectly.
I started my Mac adventure about two
and a half years ago. It took six months before I started feeling comfortable with my
Mac, and it took me a year to let go of my PC. I am now so in love with my Mac that you'd have to
pry it from my cold, dead hands.
I'm a sys admin, with many years experience in
Windows, Solaris, and Linux. I've been using DOS/Windows professionally since
MS-DOS 3.3. I've used Windows more than any other platform. It took me a very long time
to unlearn it and adapt to my Mac. I assure you that the journey for me was worth it; I
expect it'll be the same for you.
Please give it more time. If you are too
uncomfortable, go back to Windows 7. It's not that bad an OS. However, the Mac is a much
more elegant tool, as are its best apps.
Regards,
Wes
Daly de Gagne
8/9/2010 10:56 pm
Andreas, please do not apologize for raising your voice. I was hoping for that, because for me this is a critical situation.
I appreciate what you say about DevonThink, and it is the one program I can see myself using. But when push comes to shove, it is not all that different from EverNote. And it is easier to use EverNote with every program on the PC than it is on the Mac - though there may be something I am not doing right. EverNote is an automatic backup as well, because it syncs with the cloud.
I have not checked Curio, and I will do that.
Thanks.
Daly
Harlander wrote:
I appreciate what you say about DevonThink, and it is the one program I can see myself using. But when push comes to shove, it is not all that different from EverNote. And it is easier to use EverNote with every program on the PC than it is on the Mac - though there may be something I am not doing right. EverNote is an automatic backup as well, because it syncs with the cloud.
I have not checked Curio, and I will do that.
Thanks.
Daly
Harlander wrote:
Daly,
sorry for raising my voice, as I am just a lurker, but I think it also has to do
whether the programs available for the Mac simply fit your needs... For myself I
haven't found anything in the windows world that would even come close to DevonThink,
as I have to handle lots of documents and the inherent AI is worth every penny of my Mac.
All my outlining, linking, analyzing etc. is done in Tinderbox, another program I
cannot live without. Then there is the excellent Curio, again without counterpart in
the windows world. I left Windows behind three years ago and I have never looked back
since. But as Wes pointed out, I think it is better to have different programs that each
do one thing very good and thus complement one another than to have only one, that does
all of it just a little bit and lacks in every other area. Let your expectations rise too
high and you will be disappointed. It took time to get to know the OS, but after all the
frustration with Windows I thought I might as well give it a chance. And step by step it
all made sence - even services... And then, there is still VMWare Fusion and
Parallels, so I can still use connectedtext and citavi whenever I need it. So,
nothing's lost with a Mac...
Regards,
Andreas
Daly de Gagne
8/9/2010 11:02 pm
Quant, I agree with you.
On the one hand I have spent too much time trying to find one program to do it all in terms of information. ADM perhaps could have been such a program, but it is gone.
So I realized where a split was falling, and that perhaps two programs - one for heavy duty capture of information from the web, journals, etc. And another for processing of ideas, and what I am uploading from brain - such as it is.
The Mac has made me think EverNote and MyInfo, and possibly Surfulater.
In the Mac, it would have been Omni Outliner and NoteBook to do essentially what I can do with MyInfo. MyInfo starts to look pretty good as soon as you forget using its web features, which are perhaps its weakest and quirkiest part.
Daly
quant wrote:
On the one hand I have spent too much time trying to find one program to do it all in terms of information. ADM perhaps could have been such a program, but it is gone.
So I realized where a split was falling, and that perhaps two programs - one for heavy duty capture of information from the web, journals, etc. And another for processing of ideas, and what I am uploading from brain - such as it is.
The Mac has made me think EverNote and MyInfo, and possibly Surfulater.
In the Mac, it would have been Omni Outliner and NoteBook to do essentially what I can do with MyInfo. MyInfo starts to look pretty good as soon as you forget using its web features, which are perhaps its weakest and quirkiest part.
Daly
quant wrote:
"But as Wes pointed out, I think it is better to have different programs that each do one
thing very good and thus complement one another than to have only one, that does all of
it just a little bit and lacks in every other area."
I think otherwise, as far as PIM
software is concerned. I think is far better to live with small deficiencies in some of
the arreas, but have ALL the info under one hood. At the same time, this allows one to
understand the chosen soft and become master of it.
Wes Perdue
8/10/2010 12:34 am
quant wrote:
I think otherwise, as far as PIM
software is concerned. I think is far better to live with small deficiencies in some of
the arreas, but have ALL the info under one hood. At the same time, this allows one to
understand the chosen soft and become master of it.
I can see that approach would work for some, but it doesn't for me. I get overwhelmed when I'm looking at too much information at one time; I also get frustrated when tools make compromises to add features. Using different tools for different datasets helps me stay focused, e.g. Evernote for work and certain personal data sets, DevonThink for academic research, etc. I use other tools to bring things together at higher levels, e.g. Tinderbox or NovaMind for brainstorming, OmniFocus for task management, iCal for scheduling, etc.
Everyone has their own way; I've found mine on my Mac.
Regards,
Wes
Stephen Zeoli
8/10/2010 12:39 am
Daly,
I think you've received excellent advice from everyone who has responded to your sincere plea for help! I will add my two cents, of course.
I felt some of the disappointment you are feeling now when I first switched to the Mac -- perhaps not as intensely. I was even disappointed with Scrivener (the application that had been the primary catalyst for my switch) because I thought it would be so wonderful that my work would practically write itself! My disappointment was compounded by the fact that I had to return my new MacBook after a couple of weeks because some circuit-whosis didn't work properly -- the first time in 25 years of computer ownership I had a hardware problem with a new computer!
But I began to realize that most of the problem was that I just had unrealistic expectations -- what honest CRIMPer doesn't? This doesn't mean there are not a lot of compromises with Mac applications. There are. But I would urge you to ask yourself this question: If I was so happy with MyInfo and UltraRecall, why did I feel the need to switch platforms? That's what I asked myself when I got the urge to switch back.
I've since become enamored of my MacBook and am planning to buy a new one in a few months. In addition to the fact that the operating system is so much smoother, and getting on the Internet via wifi is always easy and seamless, I wouldn't want to do without Scrivener, Tinderbox and MacJournal.
Steve
I think you've received excellent advice from everyone who has responded to your sincere plea for help! I will add my two cents, of course.
I felt some of the disappointment you are feeling now when I first switched to the Mac -- perhaps not as intensely. I was even disappointed with Scrivener (the application that had been the primary catalyst for my switch) because I thought it would be so wonderful that my work would practically write itself! My disappointment was compounded by the fact that I had to return my new MacBook after a couple of weeks because some circuit-whosis didn't work properly -- the first time in 25 years of computer ownership I had a hardware problem with a new computer!
But I began to realize that most of the problem was that I just had unrealistic expectations -- what honest CRIMPer doesn't? This doesn't mean there are not a lot of compromises with Mac applications. There are. But I would urge you to ask yourself this question: If I was so happy with MyInfo and UltraRecall, why did I feel the need to switch platforms? That's what I asked myself when I got the urge to switch back.
I've since become enamored of my MacBook and am planning to buy a new one in a few months. In addition to the fact that the operating system is so much smoother, and getting on the Internet via wifi is always easy and seamless, I wouldn't want to do without Scrivener, Tinderbox and MacJournal.
Steve
Wes Perdue
8/10/2010 12:55 am
Daly de Gagne wrote:
Wes, thanks to you and the others for giving me some push-back on this.
I do appreciate it - if anything, having cut my computer teeth on the
Mac in the 90s until 2002, I may have set my expectations too high, or
in the wrong places.
You're quite welcome. I hear your frustration, and can sympathize to an extent; I do being frustrated myself during the early part of the transition.
Wes, apart from the programs, what is it that makes the Mac better in
your view to the PC? I love the way it feels, but I also like the way
my partner?s daughter?s new Windows laptop feels, and I am told W7 is
very stable.
Win 7 is quite stable; I just don't like the way it feels, probably because I've been using XP for a very long time now.
My affinity for MacOS is very difficult for me to describe, but I will try. It just feels right - logical, consistent. Keystrokes for various things across the OS are incredibly consistent between apps; menus are consistently laid out. My Mac gets out of my way more and lets me work. It took me a while to get there, but when I go back to my PC, the inconsistency is frustrating.
What I remember from the Mac is a true elegance in software - and I
have not found much of it so far, with the possible exception of
DevonThink.
I see elegance in the simplicity and consistency of design and operation of MacOS and its apps. I think you're defining elegance differently, and that's fine; elegance is quite a subjective attribute.
It sounds to me like your needs may in fact lie beyond the ability of a Mac and its apps to deliver, and that's fine. It's most important that you be comfortable and productive, so in my view it's a perfectly valid move for you to go with a new Windows system.
Shoot, I still use a PC at work by choice - many sys admin tasks are still easier for me when running XP directly on PC hardware. However, my Mac sits right here next to the PC. It's the best of both worlds.
Regards,
Wes
Wes Perdue
8/10/2010 1:06 am
Daly de Gagne wrote:
Andreas, please do not apologize for raising your voice. I was hoping
for that, because for me this is a critical situation.
I appreciate what you say about DevonThink, and it is the one program I
can see myself using. But when push comes to shove, it is not all that
different from EverNote. And it is easier to use EverNote with every
program on the PC than it is on the Mac - though there may be something
I am not doing right. EverNote is an automatic backup as well, because
it syncs with the cloud.
I've a couple thoughts on DevonThink and Evernote. I agree that they are rather similar. I use each for different things, as they have different strengths. DT for me is a rather nice writing environment, with its good rich text editor; I keep my personal journal in DT. I use Evernote for the myriad notes I take; its cloud syncing and accessibility from anywhere is invaluable, but it's rather terrible at handling rich text. I also don't want to overwhelm it with niche research data.
I have not checked Curio, and I will do that.
I tried to use Curio for project management, but it didn't work for me. It's a beautiful app, but I think it tries too hard to do too many things, so it doesn't do many things well. It's better for me to just keep my project tasks in OmniFocus and let the other project data sleep where it lies - most likely in Evernote or NovaMind.
Regards,
Wes
Thanks.
Daly
Hugh
8/10/2010 8:36 am
Daly
Some immediate random thoughts:
- it helps to have a strong reason for switching, and a goal. I use my Mac for writing, as I previously used Word on the PC. That was until, first, I lost a lot of material in Word on the PC, and then, second, having tried Liquid Story Binder, PageFour, and various other Windows writing applications whose names I forget, I spied Scrivener. As I've told Scrivener's developer, his application is the most expensive consumer software ever; I bought a MacBook for it. Only later did I discover other useful applications that can support what I do, such as DevonThink and MacJournal.
- you've said little in your observations about the consistency and connectedness of the Mac interface. For me that's almost more important than the qualities of individual applications - the ease with which, for example, you can shuttle text around using the Services menu. Incidentally, it's worth learning how to make best use of the Services menu.
- some of the applications you're looking at or planning to look at are really heavyweight and take quite a long time to learn, just as their counterparts on the PC also do. I've been using Scrivener for at least a couple of years now; last week I learnt of an important feature that I'd been ignorant of before. I've scratched the surface of Curio; I've quite a long way to go with DevonThink Pro, although it's my main data repository. It's not that the manuals are poorly written; Scrivener, Curio and DevonThink have very good reference and tuition materials. It's just that there's a lot of features and functionality to absorb, and it's necessary to persevere. Even Circus Ponies' NoteBook is quite a big programme.
- but ultimately, "diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks": I'm with Manfred on this. Maybe the Mac and its software will suit you, maybe they won't.
A couple of words about DevonThink. DevonThink technology has lots of bells and whistles, but fundamentally it has two features which are distinctive: the ability to handle gigabytes of data without choking, and the ability to offer you connections between documents you hadn't thought of. To give an example: I have several thousand documents in DevonThink on recent Southern African events; I recently searched for information about Nelson Mandela in prison, and DevonThink also offered me a useful, long-forgottent note I'd slung in about someone who was involved in the education of Mandela's children. By the way, only consider DevonThink Pro or Pro Office (which offers OCR features). The lesser members of the family are insufficiently versatile.
But... if you don't want these advantages and don't have the material to fill DevonThink up, I wouldn't bother with it. There are perfectly good less heavyweight substitutes on the Mac, such as Eaglefiler and Together, and they'll be easier to get to grips with.
H
Some immediate random thoughts:
- it helps to have a strong reason for switching, and a goal. I use my Mac for writing, as I previously used Word on the PC. That was until, first, I lost a lot of material in Word on the PC, and then, second, having tried Liquid Story Binder, PageFour, and various other Windows writing applications whose names I forget, I spied Scrivener. As I've told Scrivener's developer, his application is the most expensive consumer software ever; I bought a MacBook for it. Only later did I discover other useful applications that can support what I do, such as DevonThink and MacJournal.
- you've said little in your observations about the consistency and connectedness of the Mac interface. For me that's almost more important than the qualities of individual applications - the ease with which, for example, you can shuttle text around using the Services menu. Incidentally, it's worth learning how to make best use of the Services menu.
- some of the applications you're looking at or planning to look at are really heavyweight and take quite a long time to learn, just as their counterparts on the PC also do. I've been using Scrivener for at least a couple of years now; last week I learnt of an important feature that I'd been ignorant of before. I've scratched the surface of Curio; I've quite a long way to go with DevonThink Pro, although it's my main data repository. It's not that the manuals are poorly written; Scrivener, Curio and DevonThink have very good reference and tuition materials. It's just that there's a lot of features and functionality to absorb, and it's necessary to persevere. Even Circus Ponies' NoteBook is quite a big programme.
- but ultimately, "diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks": I'm with Manfred on this. Maybe the Mac and its software will suit you, maybe they won't.
A couple of words about DevonThink. DevonThink technology has lots of bells and whistles, but fundamentally it has two features which are distinctive: the ability to handle gigabytes of data without choking, and the ability to offer you connections between documents you hadn't thought of. To give an example: I have several thousand documents in DevonThink on recent Southern African events; I recently searched for information about Nelson Mandela in prison, and DevonThink also offered me a useful, long-forgottent note I'd slung in about someone who was involved in the education of Mandela's children. By the way, only consider DevonThink Pro or Pro Office (which offers OCR features). The lesser members of the family are insufficiently versatile.
But... if you don't want these advantages and don't have the material to fill DevonThink up, I wouldn't bother with it. There are perfectly good less heavyweight substitutes on the Mac, such as Eaglefiler and Together, and they'll be easier to get to grips with.
H
Tom S.
8/10/2010 9:36 am
Daly de Gagne wrote:
As I continue to explore programs here on my new Mac, a very profound kind of
The word processing options
seem about the same as in PC world.
Truth.
Perhaps if I could figure out "services" I could
understand why some programs seem to have them and others do not.
The easiest way to find simple explanations for things like this is through the Mac help file, which is accessible by choosing "Help" from the menu while in a Finder window.
From the Mac help file:
--
Getting tasks done more quickly using services
Many applications in Mac OS X let you use the features (or ?services?) of one application while you?re working in another application. For example, if you?re viewing a PDF file in Preview, you can select a chunk of text, and then use the Mail service to quickly email that text to a colleague, without having to first copy the text, open the Mail application, create a new email message, and so on. Services give you quick, convenient shortcuts for doing many tasks, including searching the web, making sticky notes, having text in a document read aloud, sending a file to your Bluetooth phone, and much more.
To use an application?s services:
Select an item to work with, such as a file in the Finder or a chunk of text in a document.
Open the application menu (to the right of the Apple menu), choose Services, and then choose the service you want to use.
For example, to email a file on your desktop, select the file, and then choose Finder > Services > Send File.
--
Note well the philosophy which Wes elegantly explained earlier in the thread. The Mac is a lot like Unix - programs are designed to do a few thing well and integrate with other programs that do a few other things well. Services are the main way in which these programs connect to one another. If you are a DEVONThink developer you need a good way to import information from emails. So you write a Service which allows you to send information to DT while in the Mail program. That's one of several ways in which this can be done.
I would also mention one more thing. You don't *have* to do it but IMO, as in Windows with IE, your life might be easier if you use the built in tools (Safari, iCal, Mail, Address Book, etc..). People who develop these services write them to work with these programs first. If I remember right, you are a Firefox guy and that's great. But using Safari just for a while might give you a better idea of what these programs can do with the browser before having to struggle to figure out what does and doesn't work with third party software.
The computer
itself feels solid, and has not crashed once. I like the feel and the look of it.
Apple is a hardware company at heart. That's what you are paying for.
EN seems better in the Mac, except so far I haven't found a universal
clipping pane which operates as highlight and click - I have to highlight, copy, and
then click.
The Safari clipper can be accessed by pressing the button with and elephant on it to the left of the address bar. I haven't used it but I understand Firefox has a similar clipper. These are highlight and click. I can't remember if there was anything I had to do to set it up. The user manual and the EN website should have more details.
So I have a couple of days - do I keep the Mac, or do I ask Staples
for my money back, and get a PC?
If I read your posts right you've only had the thing for a couple days. If you are really committed to finding out whether this was the right move for you, I would suggest that you be patient and work at it. These programs have to be mined for information to find out what they can and can't do, how they integrate with the Mac environment, etc... You still may not be happy but I really think this is the only way to find out.
If that's not what you want to do, I would suggest you return it now and go back to the PC. I'm a Mac guy but I've always been a big fan of programs like UltraRecall.
Cheers,
Tom S.
Daly de Gagne
8/10/2010 2:10 pm
Hugh, thanks for your post.
Re manuals and the quality of the writing: To me a manual is poorly written if it fails to give the level of detail necessary to get a feature to work correctly. Writers who know a product inside and out sometimes make assumptions about a little detail, and it makes all the difference for the end user - often causing a tremendous waste of time.
Two examples:
I just did a search in DevonThink's PDF help file on tags trying to find out why when I create a tag it sometimes shows up in the tag group with an icon, and why it sometimes does not. Could not find the answer - 15 minutes gone. Is it important? To me it is, because intuitively if a program is that sophisticated, a created tag should show up in the tag group, which will then make it easier to see what tags are there without having to open the tag window, which stays on top until it is closed. Is the answer in the PDF - perhaps.
NoteBook has a links capability. I read the bit in the manual. I assumed a degree of automation that once I made the link, I could simply go to where I wanted the link to land, and complete the operation. The manual failed to tell me I needed to first put a title in that location. Silly me assumed that if I did as I was told the wording in the originating cell would appear in the destination cell.
Then there's the instructions for using columns in Mori, which are completely useless.
In terms of overall presentation help files under the Help menu item, there seems to be less consistency with the Mac than Windows, and overall the files seem less helpful. Not what I would have expected.
The more complex the program, the more simple and practical the instructions have to be. Good technical writers get that, and that's why they are worth their weight in gold, and sometimes actually get paid well in the process.
Daly
Hugh wrote:
Re manuals and the quality of the writing: To me a manual is poorly written if it fails to give the level of detail necessary to get a feature to work correctly. Writers who know a product inside and out sometimes make assumptions about a little detail, and it makes all the difference for the end user - often causing a tremendous waste of time.
Two examples:
I just did a search in DevonThink's PDF help file on tags trying to find out why when I create a tag it sometimes shows up in the tag group with an icon, and why it sometimes does not. Could not find the answer - 15 minutes gone. Is it important? To me it is, because intuitively if a program is that sophisticated, a created tag should show up in the tag group, which will then make it easier to see what tags are there without having to open the tag window, which stays on top until it is closed. Is the answer in the PDF - perhaps.
NoteBook has a links capability. I read the bit in the manual. I assumed a degree of automation that once I made the link, I could simply go to where I wanted the link to land, and complete the operation. The manual failed to tell me I needed to first put a title in that location. Silly me assumed that if I did as I was told the wording in the originating cell would appear in the destination cell.
Then there's the instructions for using columns in Mori, which are completely useless.
In terms of overall presentation help files under the Help menu item, there seems to be less consistency with the Mac than Windows, and overall the files seem less helpful. Not what I would have expected.
The more complex the program, the more simple and practical the instructions have to be. Good technical writers get that, and that's why they are worth their weight in gold, and sometimes actually get paid well in the process.
Daly
Hugh wrote:
Daly
Some immediate random thoughts:
- it helps to have a strong reason for
switching, and a goal. I use my Mac for writing, as I previously used Word on the PC. That
was until, first, I lost a lot of material in Word on the PC, and then, second, having
tried Liquid Story Binder, PageFour, and various other Windows writing
applications whose names I forget, I spied Scrivener. As I've told Scrivener's
developer, his application is the most expensive consumer software ever; I bought a
MacBook for it. Only later did I discover other useful applications that can support
what I do, such as DevonThink and MacJournal.
- you've said little in your
observations about the consistency and connectedness of the Mac interface. For me
that's almost more important than the qualities of individual applications - the
ease with which, for example, you can shuttle text around using the Services menu.
Incidentally, it's worth learning how to make best use of the Services menu.
- some
of the applications you're looking at or planning to look at are really heavyweight
and take quite a long time to learn, just as their counterparts on the PC also do. I've
been using Scrivener for at least a couple of years now; last week I learnt of an
important feature that I'd been ignorant of before. I've scratched the surface of
Curio; I've quite a long way to go with DevonThink Pro, although it's my main data
repository. It's not that the manuals are poorly written; Scrivener, Curio and
DevonThink have very good reference and tuition materials. It's just that there's a
lot of features and functionality to absorb, and it's necessary to persevere. Even
Circus Ponies' NoteBook is quite a big programme.
- but ultimately, "diff'rent
strokes for diff'rent folks": I'm with Manfred on this. Maybe the Mac and its software
will suit you, maybe they won't.
A couple of words about DevonThink. DevonThink
technology has lots of bells and whistles, but fundamentally it has two features
which are distinctive: the ability to handle gigabytes of data without choking, and
the ability to offer you connections between documents you hadn't thought of. To give
an example: I have several thousand documents in DevonThink on recent Southern
African events; I recently searched for information about Nelson Mandela in prison,
and DevonThink also offered me a useful, long-forgottent note I'd slung in about
someone who was involved in the education of Mandela's children. By the way, only
consider DevonThink Pro or Pro Office (which offers OCR features). The lesser
members of the family are insufficiently versatile.
But... if you don't want these
advantages and don't have the material to fill DevonThink up, I wouldn't bother with
it. There are perfectly good less heavyweight substitutes on the Mac, such as
Eaglefiler and Together, and they'll be easier to get to grips with.
H
Daly de Gagne
8/10/2010 2:18 pm
Good question, Steve. As I said (I think) in another post yesterday, I was expecting too much perhaps, and had been taken in by some of the glowing claims made by developers and people who were saying how much advanced Mac programs are.
I remember a time when that would have been the case. But looking at some of the programs, while they have obvious strengths, the consistency across features, even the inclusion of a reasonable feature set, seems very uneven.
It is ironic to me that we see the Mac as being ahead for outliners, yet the provision of internal outlining - ie within the text block - is minimal compared with PC programs. Even a sophisticated program like DevonThink only has a rudimentary provision for an internal list. OO has none for its text block, thus limiting its usefulness as a place to write.
I think I fell for the notion that there was holy grail called Mac - part of it based on my own experiences with Macs years ago.
The wifi point I agree with. Very fast, solid connections.
Daly
Stephen Zeoli wrote:
I remember a time when that would have been the case. But looking at some of the programs, while they have obvious strengths, the consistency across features, even the inclusion of a reasonable feature set, seems very uneven.
It is ironic to me that we see the Mac as being ahead for outliners, yet the provision of internal outlining - ie within the text block - is minimal compared with PC programs. Even a sophisticated program like DevonThink only has a rudimentary provision for an internal list. OO has none for its text block, thus limiting its usefulness as a place to write.
I think I fell for the notion that there was holy grail called Mac - part of it based on my own experiences with Macs years ago.
The wifi point I agree with. Very fast, solid connections.
Daly
Stephen Zeoli wrote:
Daly,
I think you've received excellent advice from everyone who has responded to
your sincere plea for help! I will add my two cents, of course.
I felt some of the
disappointment you are feeling now when I first switched to the Mac -- perhaps not as
intensely. I was even disappointed with Scrivener (the application that had been the
primary catalyst for my switch) because I thought it would be so wonderful that my work
would practically write itself! My disappointment was compounded by the fact that I
had to return my new MacBook after a couple of weeks because some circuit-whosis
didn't work properly -- the first time in 25 years of computer ownership I had a
hardware problem with a new computer!
But I began to realize that most of the problem
was that I just had unrealistic expectations -- what honest CRIMPer doesn't? This
doesn't mean there are not a lot of compromises with Mac applications. There are. But I
would urge you to ask yourself this question: If I was so happy with MyInfo and
UltraRecall, why did I feel the need to switch platforms? That's what I asked myself
when I got the urge to switch back.
I've since become enamored of my MacBook and am
planning to buy a new one in a few months. In addition to the fact that the operating
system is so much smoother, and getting on the Internet via wifi is always easy and
seamless, I wouldn't want to do without Scrivener, Tinderbox and
MacJournal.
Steve
