Any thoughts on Notebook vs Notetaker?

They seem similar to me in ways from first quick look.

But Notebook has some template setups which seem helpful, though I could probably replicate them in Notetaker, if I wished.

I'm wondering which one would be easier to work with after months and months of adding information and data?

Daly

I think Steve Z, has more experience of NoteBook than I have, but I did trial both applications early on in my Mac experience.

The reason I abandoned them was because I decided I didn't need them. With DevonThink as my heavyweight information management system, I decided I did need a lighter-weight, "instant" jotter/clipper/scratchpad as well, and MacJournal has mostly fulfilled that role for me. In addition to the attributes that Steve lists in another thread, it also has a quicknote feature, which I find useful. Other Mac applications that can perform an information-management-lite plus quicknote role include Notational Velocity and Shovebox.

(To some extent DevonThink's most recent version has made MacJournal redundant in this regard. To some extent - but not quite entirely. Using DevonThink for jottting still feels like using the proverbial jackhammer to crack a nut.)

Circus Ponies' Notebook has an attractive user-interface and many good features, and who isn't intrigued by "Circus Ponies"? But for me, it and NoteTaker, which is very similar (I believe the two developers used to work together), fall between two stools. It's not heavyweight enough to compete with DevonThink, and it's not nimble enough to rival MacJournal, Notational Velocity, Shovebox, or several others like them.

I agree with everything Hugh said. I have a license for Notebook, which I got early on in my Mac career. I like the concept of the notebook metaphor, but it really doesn't work for me in practice. And I really want it to work. Every few months I fire it up again with the intention of really, really using it... but then it quickly fades into the background. The pages and dividers and tabs are just too cumbersome and really get in the way in practice. I could see it being useful as a project manager, where I create a notebook for each project. But at this point most of my "project" work is done at the office on a PC.

Still, it is a very powerful application and if you like the metaphor, you might give it a whirl. I know some people swear by it and do almost all their work in it.

A few months ago I took a look at Notetaker just for the heck of it. Unfortunately, I don't recall the experience very well. There was something that it did that Notebook didn't that appealed to me, I just don't remember what it was... and, regardless, it wasn't enough to get me to buy it.

A final note, both applications are fairly functional outliners, so that might be appealing -- although without custom columns. I don't know if they do clones.

Steve Z.

Hugh, thanks. I'll check out the two programs you suggested.

I'm liking Devon Think - but on the other hand, am finding it covers a lot of the same ground as EverNote - and EN is a lot more pleasant to use in its Mac version.

Re Notebook - am liking the multidex at the back - it is kind of neat.

Daly

Hugh wrote:

I think Steve Z, has more experience of NoteBook than I have, but I did trial both
applications early on in my Mac experience.

The reason I abandoned them was because
I decided I didn't need them. With DevonThink as my heavyweight information
management system, I decided I did need a lighter-weight, "instant"
jotter/clipper/scratchpad as well, and MacJournal has mostly fulfilled that role
for me. In addition to the attributes that Steve lists in another thread, it also has a
quicknote feature, which I find useful. Other Mac applications that can perform an
information-management-lite plus quicknote role include Notational Velocity and
Shovebox.

(To some extent DevonThink's most recent version has made MacJournal
redundant in this regard. To some extent - but not quite entirely. Using DevonThink
for jottting still feels like using the proverbial jackhammer to crack a
nut.)

Circus Ponies' Notebook has an attractive user-interface and many good
features, and who isn't intrigued by "Circus Ponies"? But for me, it and NoteTaker,
which is very similar (I believe the two developers used to work together), fall
between two stools. It's not heavyweight enough to compete with DevonThink, and it's
not nimble enough to rival MacJournal, Notational Velocity, Shovebox, or several
others like them.

Steve, thanks for your feedback.

The proof is often in the pudding, and I've found that getting into Notebook is easier than I thought. It actually felt kind of intuitive. (Am very disappointed in the lack of intuitive feel with Tao, Mori, or even OO).

I am using OmniOutline for a database to track what I've read, and plan to read.

Will take a look at NoteTaker in more detail.

Daly

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

I agree with everything Hugh said. I have a license for Notebook, which I got early on in
my Mac career. I like the concept of the notebook metaphor, but it really doesn't work
for me in practice. And I really want it to work. Every few months I fire it up again with
the intention of really, really using it... but then it quickly fades into the
background. The pages and dividers and tabs are just too cumbersome and really get in
the way in practice. I could see it being useful as a project manager, where I create a
notebook for each project. But at this point most of my "project" work is done at the
office on a PC.

Still, it is a very powerful application and if you like the metaphor,
you might give it a whirl. I know some people swear by it and do almost all their work in
it.

A few months ago I took a look at Notetaker just for the heck of it. Unfortunately,
I don't recall the experience very well. There was something that it did that Notebook
didn't that appealed to me, I just don't remember what it was... and, regardless, it
wasn't enough to get me to buy it.

A final note, both applications are fairly
functional outliners, so that might be appealing -- although without custom
columns. I don't know if they do clones.

Steve Z.

As I continue to work with NoteBook, I am amazed to find out the link feature does not let me make a link within the same notebook or between different notebooks. Oops. (If I am missing something, and there is a way to do this, please let me know,)

Why do developers shoot themselves in the foot this way - especially when it involves information programs where one reasonably expects the need for there to be links?

I have set up a section for a project, and it itemizes action steps, ie to do items. So I wanted to make link from there to the to do page in the notebook where all my to do items are listed. Not possible.

So I have to copy and paste. And re-enter the due date.

In case I should mistakingly not go through this rigamarole with an item, the multidex picks up all items with a date as to do items. And I can use tags.

And as near as I can see, OmniOutliner has no internal linking capability either.

So perhaps I expect too much coming back to the Mac. In some ways it seems Mac programs have not improved all that much - or that the stuff coming to market is not fully thought out, or is based on what the developer sees as the minimum acceptable feature set.

But come on guys - internal linking is pretty basic. And easy to use tagging systems should be universal by now. It is the 21st century.

Much to my surprise NoteBook is holding up well in my frenetic comparing and contrasting - and so is OO for some things; so the short comings I mention are probably not going to be deal breakers. On the other hand, they do not make me feel are that positive about the developers of these respective programs. In fact, if may be forgiven a little cynicism, it seems they are coasting on the laurels of the Mac as an intuitive, user friendly system.

Daly

Daly,

For internal linking in a "notebook", VoodooPad is the Mac market-leader: http://flyingmeat.com/voodoopad/

To respond to your more general point about Mac software. As with any platform there are of course not-so-good as well as good applications available. In my view there are three reasons for owning a Mac: the hardware is generally of high quality (though undoubtedly generally more expensive); the operating system imposes a harmony, connectedness and uniformity on the software that some users find bland but others including me find time-saving (this was particularly evident in comparison with Windows Vista); and Apple's policies towards small developers, though not always supportive, have helped encourage the creation of a number of very good and distinctive applications, certain of which currently have no Windows equivalent.

These applications, many of them "the usual suspects" for this forum, include:

Scrivener
Tinderbox
Omnifocus
Things
DevonThink
Curio
Merlin
Nisus Writer Pro
Bean
Mellel
Notational Velocity
Launchbar
Quicksilver (not on Snow Leopard)
Hazel

This is not of course an exclusive list.

However, nothing stands still. Windows software is moving to fill the gaps that the Mac has made more evident. Windows 7 is of course more user-friendly than Vista and much more of a true competitor for OS X; Windows 8 has been billed as an OS X clone. Attempts at Scrivener clones for Windows already exist; publicly, hints have been dropped that an official branded Scrivener for Windows may be on its way. Some OS X developers have been distracted by the iPad.

I know of a writer who has moved back from the Mac to Windows, saying Word 2010 and OneNote are all that he needs.

Despite Steve Jobs saying the future lies with tablets, his computer division and the small developers who develop for it are going to have to run to stay ahead, I think.

H

Daly,

Notebook does have internal linking. Search in help for "link to cell or page."

Steve Z.

Hugh,

I'd add MacJournal to your list of applications superior to any on the PC, despite the fact Mariner Software also sells WinJournal.

Steve

Steve

Yes, I thought about MacJournal as I typed the list! You're right, it should be included; it's an excellent Mac citizen that "does what it says on the tin". Version 3.0 has been around for a little while now, so I'd expect a significant upgrade before too long.

Incidentally, I suppose the absolute Mac market-leader for internal linking is Tinderbox. Not only does it have note links that can be graphical, it also has cameLCase wiki-links (as we learnt on this forum). But amongst more orthodox note-takers, VoodooPad is probably the leader. I have little experience of it, so I don't feel able to rate its qualities myself.

H

Hugh,

What distinguishes VoodooPad as a personal wiki is the editor window is a full-fledged word processor. There's no need to enter "edit" mode. This is a very alluring feature. The thing I find most limiting about VP -- and one of the main reasons it is not a go to application for me -- is that it has a weak ability to provide an overview of your wiki. It does have a flat index of the various pages, but that is mostly useless when you get to hundreds of pages. This, of course, is a problem all personal wikis have to deal with. But ConnectedText on the PC has far more powerful tools for getting an overview -- the navigator and the topics list.

My other problem with VP -- perhaps a silly one -- is it feels very depressing. The colors are drab and the tool bar icons very uninspired. Not a good reason NOT to use the application, but not really all that inviting either.

Steve

Steve, I had tried this - and am told that it does not link between notebooks, although the help file says the opposite.

I do exactly what the help file says, and get no where. It is the same story as trying to make a custom column with Mori.

Either I have suddenly gone stupid and don't read English anymore, or the help file is badly written.

Since reading your note this morning I have tried, and after several tries got the internal link to work - not at all sure why it works some times and not others.

And this last point, is really nice - after I made a second link and got it to work after a couple of times, the link disappeared.

So the documentation is lacking, or the program is quirky, or both.

Sorry I sound so frustrated Steve, but frankly, there was a time when Mac programs really were easier to find your way around in. I am very disillusioned, and am quickly arriving at a conclusion that Windows developers are making more of an effort and have closed the distance - in spite of the issues we have all discussed so many times.

And come to think of it - how many times do we see Mac developers here?

But...in the meantime, if anyone can help me figure out how to make NoteBook internal links work consistently, sure would appreciate it.

I am going to shut down the program, and reopen it to see if that helps. If it doesn't, I will shut down the computer and boot it up again.

Thanks for your patience.

Daly

Stephen Zeoli wrote:

Daly,

Notebook does have internal linking. Search in help for "link to cell or
page."

Steve Z.

Steve, I think I have got the NoteBook linking to work consistently - though it is apparent the help file missed a couple of details.

Since I am in rant mode - why when we deal with outliners do developers not make it easy to create lists in text areas by providing the choice to use bullets, etc.?

This would have added to value of both OO and NoteBook.

Last night, to put a bit of a positive spin on this, I worked until about 0130 - real work - writing some book review material for my blog in NoteBook - I enjoyed the process. That was all good. I had earlier in the day laid the basis for another review in OO.

So it looks like both these programs may be keepers - also looking at MacJornal as you suggested.

Anyhow, when I wanted to list the books in my text item, I had to play around with the ruler to set up first line hanging indents (think that's what they're called) just as I did in the late 90s with WriteNow - virtually every major Windows program has the option to go to bullets, etc in text.

Maybe I should just use a word processor and be done with it - but when I am in an outline and have everything in front of me, that helps to move me to action.

I will look at Scrivener, but for writing 700 word blog posts, that sort of seems like taking a cruise missile to kill a Manitoba mosquito!

Daly

Daly de Gagne wrote:

Steve, I had tried this - and am told that it does not link between notebooks, although
the help file says the opposite.

I do exactly what the help file says, and get no
where. It is the same story as trying to make a custom column with Mori.

Either I have
suddenly gone stupid and don't read English anymore, or the help file is badly
written.

Since reading your note this morning I have tried, and after several tries
got the internal link to work - not at all sure why it works some times and not
others.

And this last point, is really nice - after I made a second link and got it to
work after a couple of times, the link disappeared.

So the documentation is
lacking, or the program is quirky, or both.

Sorry I sound so frustrated Steve, but
frankly, there was a time when Mac programs really were easier to find your way around
in. I am very disillusioned, and am quickly arriving at a conclusion that Windows
developers are making more of an effort and have closed the distance - in spite of the
issues we have all discussed so many times.

And come to think of it - how many times do
we see Mac developers here?

But...in the meantime, if anyone can help me figure out
how to make NoteBook internal links work consistently, sure would appreciate it.

I
am going to shut down the program, and reopen it to see if that helps. If it doesn't, I
will shut down the computer and boot it up again.

Thanks for your
patience.

Daly

Stephen Zeoli wrote:
>Daly,
>
>Notebook does have internal
linking. Search in help for "link to cell or
>page."
>
>Steve Z.

I prefer Notebook.

I spent quite a bit of time trying out the various Mac information managers, and much as I appreciated the interfaces of Notebook and Notetaker, I decided the "notebook metaphor" didn't work for me. Being in one section or on one page felt limiting compared to an outline, where it's all out there to see (if you want to expand everything for that purpose).

I really liked MacJournal - it's clean, elegant, has nested folders (unlike Yojimbo), and works quite well - but settled on DevonThink for its cloning abilities. It's also one of the most rock-solid pieces of software I've ever seen. I can load it up with enormous amounts of data, images, files, whatever, and it never slows down, crashes or even burps. I gather that Daly has given up his Mac experiment, but if he hasn't, I'd encourage him to take another look at DT. It might feel like overkill at times, given its many capabilities, but its Replicate function could possibly provide the linking that he's looking for.

I do use OmniOutliner for a lot of things, Notational Velocity for quick and easy note-taking, and Evernote for certain things, mostly because of its over the air synching. But the heavy lifting belongs to DT in the three-pane view.

I am a big fan of Circus Ponies' notebook app for one and only one reason: the ease of creating bullet-list outlines. For whatever reason, my head thinks in hierarchical lists. NB works in bullet-list format by default (probably a settable preference but I never have), and tab, shift-tab, return, and other keystrokes do exactly what they should (indent, outdent, new list item, etc). You can expand or collapse individual lists, you can move an entire hierarchy around easily, and you can format/highlight/place notes anywhere.

Most other things in Notebook are less than satisfying. The multidex is slow and cumbersome, the contents pages are awful and there is no way to organize other than the linear notebook/divider/page metaphor, and other things (todo items) are much less useful than they could be. And, after months of waiting, we finally got an iPad app -- unusably bad for $30.

The only other tool I know of that works that well with outlines is OmniOutliner, which doesn't have an iPad version at all. I've tried MacJournal, but it's got a normal text editor, not an outliner, so that's no use.DevonThink is expensive, and looks interesting but I'm not going to waste time learning it since it doesn't have an outliner either (unless I haven't found it). Any other possibilities I haven't thought of?

OmniGroup is promising an iPad version for OmniOutliner -- though it was supposed to be out by the end of 2010, and now they are just promising sometime this year. Still, it might be worth the wait.

Steve

In reading this post (as I was not the author of the above post), I realize that we now have two Kens posting on the site. I am a bit surprised that site software does not prohibit identical names, but I am sure we can work to keep the two of us properly identified. While I have an iPod Touch, and was a Mac user many years ago, I work with PC's and an Android smartphone. So, any Mac postings like the above will not be from me. Unless a Mac appears in my future. ;)

--Ken

What happened to Notetaker? Much was said about Notebook, but nothing about Notetaker and the op was Notebook vs Notetaker.

I'm looking a purchasing one of them would be interested in the which one folks believe to be better.

-s

I have used both, but I do not rely on them much, so this opinion is not based on deep usage.

I think Notebook is considered the more solid of the two, and that matches my experience. I do like the cleaner feel of Notetaker, and Notetaker has a PC version, although not a particularly powerful version. Development of Notebook is pretty slow.

What is your intended use? You might check out Growly Notes, which is free and pretty feature-rich:

http://growlybird.com/GrowlyBird/Notes.html

Steve Z.

I did take a look at growlybird, but I'm always nervous with free software. I know that's bad, but it does mean if it's free that there is no obligation to continue it. I want something more long term.

I'm a church minister and prepare sermons and teach in a Bible school. I really need something that I can use for research and note preparation. The ability to insert audio and video is particularly helpful and the ability to annotate text. Although word processors are ok I have long struggled with the inability to draw and add sticky notes on the text. This is especially important when teaching the same time again and adding stuff.

My only real question with Notebook is how much information one notebook will take? Can I keep a whole subject in one or only one lesson?

-s

Hi, Simon,

I understand the caution with free software; though there are ample examples of paid applications which become abandoned.

I believe you can put a lot of information in a CircusPonies Notebook. For me it isn't a question of whether or not the application can handle a lot of information. I've found that it is hard for me to keep a big notebook like that well organized. I think -- and this really is only my opinion and based on how I work and process information -- that the notebook metaphor gets unwieldy after it gets to a certain size. If you are not concerned about that, then I am sure you will find Notebook a great tool.

I hope you will share your experience with this forum.

Thanks.

Steve Z.

Simon wrote:

I did take a look at growlybird, but I'm always nervous with free software. I know
that's bad, but it does mean if it's free that there is no obligation to continue it. I
want something more long term.

I'm a church minister and prepare sermons and teach
in a Bible school. I really need something that I can use for research and note
preparation. The ability to insert audio and video is particularly helpful and the
ability to annotate text. Although word processors are ok I have long struggled with
the inability to draw and add sticky notes on the text. This is especially important
when teaching the same time again and adding stuff.

My only real question with
Notebook is how much information one notebook will take? Can I keep a whole subject in
one or only one lesson?

-s

I bought CarbonFin for the iPad -- a clean, simple program that I like a lot. It also has a web-based platform. But I admit that (as is true for most things with the iPad), I use it for lighter-weight tasks.