What are the options if one wants to replace Evernote2 with an application that is still "alive"?

Another way of asking:
What note-organizing applications are out there that are based around a keyword paradigm?



JasonE

Several for the Mac (can't help with Windows): Yep 2, Leap 2, Eaglefiler, Together 2, and DevonThink Pro, plus some smaller applications such as the useful Shovebox and Notational Velocity, off the top of my head. Many of these have adopted the OpenMeta standard for tags, which enables transferable tagging. Not certain about Circus Ponies Notebook and Aquaminds NoteTaker, but I think they use keywords or tags too. It could be argued that Tinderbox is the Mac keyword-notetaker le plus ultra, but of course it does many other things as well. Scrivener has a keyword function.

There's a question-mark over Apple's willingness to allow OpenMeta to endure, because it uses an unapproved part of the file-attribute system, but DevonThink's adoption of it may make it less easily expungeable. If it were to spread as a standard, become "official" and be developed further, it could become another reason to value Mac OS X over Windows.

But I agree with others: I liked Evernote Original's toilet-roll-like note system and its keyword intersections.

Correction: Shovebox doesn't do tags or keywords; it has filing rules instead, which I use in a tag-like manner. But Notational Velocity, which has the added advantage of synching with Simplenote, certainly does.

I forgot MacJournal.

Try CintaNotes -- http://cintanotes.com/ -- the developer has a free edition, which only captures text notes, and will soon be releasing a premium (paid) edition for capturing graphics and rtf formatting (we think.)

I started using CintaNotes as a replacement for Evernote 2.2 -- it's fast, lightweight, and easily searched using standard type-text-filtering and keyword tags. Unfortunately, it is only for Windows (in case you're looking toward the Mac side.) Great for jotting down quick notes on the go -- which, if necessary, I can then transfer to my PersonalBrain or ConnectedText later on. The way I use CintaNotes is to store the entire program and data in the cloud using DropBox. I can then access it from any of my machines.

Glen

Glen Coulthard wrote:

Try CintaNotes

My main complaint w/ CintaNotes is that it only allows one database. With Evernote2 I had a work database and a couple of other ones covering different contexts of my personal life.

I guess an easy work around is just to have tags for whatever context. I could have a tag "WORK" for every single note regarding work. It might not be that much trouble because new notes automatically get the tags for any tag buttons that are currently pressed.

All this thinking about Evernote2 is making me more motivated to see if I can really get CintaNotes to work for me.


JasonE

I think I already have the answer (we are working on something) but I am not yet in a position to tell/show you......sorry!

What would help is for me to understand how and what info/other you are trying to control and why you loved EN 2.0 and how it helped you achieve that. I know that might take a bit of putting together!

If you decided you would like to do that, you could pull it together in a EN 2.0 DB and then publish it somewhere for me to go and get....it would be appreciated.

PersonalKnowbase uses keywords. It's still alive, but it has been a little while since its been significantly updated. Still, it may be worth checking out.

http://www.bitsmithsoft.com/

Steve

skylark wrote:

I think I already have the answer
If you decided you would like to do that, you could pull it together in a EN 2.0 DB and then publish it
somewhere for me to go and get....it would be appreciated.

I assume that you are talking to me. This sounds very interesting...
Drop me an email so that I can contact you directly:

ebaughjason@SPAMNOT.yahoo.com

JasonE

JasonE

yes I've sent you an email.

skylark wrote:

yes I've sent you an email.

I didn't get it. I checked spam filter. I wonder if you took my spam guard of of my address.

Here it is straight away:

ebaughjason@yahoo.com


Jason

Looks like the options for Windows are Personal Knowbase and CintaNotes.

I have an interesting puzzle which may just mean I hold off on this type of program.

Personal Knowbase doesn't work for me because notes are all in their own windows. The tape display of EverNote really made the program for me.
CintaNotes is seriously limited because it only has one database.

It makes me think, "who cares if EN isn't supported anymore. My copy still works"
But EN's export feature derails that idea. It doesn't export into any format that I have faith in being accessible any farther in the future than .enb will be. I could live with a dead-end application if I knew I could port the information forward. But the combination of non-standard export and non-supported application does it in for me.

Multiple databases is in the CintaNotes planned features. And we will see what skylark has up his sleeve...


JasonE

I'd be surprised if more tag-based PIMs don't appear soon; tags have become the modern way to organise stuff, to the extent that their "superiority" over hierarchical systems has been highlighted by works such as D.Weinberger's "Everything is miscellaneous". (There is of course also the best of both worlds --hierarchical tags)

Re exporting from Evernote 2:
- I understand that the note export feature creates an XML file which should be readable by software such as Treeline among others (though I haven't tried it myself)
- One can use Evernote 3 as an intermediate stage; v.3 uses SQLite as infrastructure, so its files should be readable by the program (again, I haven't tried it myself)

In both cases some programming knowledge may be rquired, but I think that the data is much safer than in other proprietary formats that I can think of.

I have to put in a word for Surfulater ... it's a bit more complex than evernote 2.2, but it's powerful and the developer is very active. It's got the structure and tags. I'm still using evernote 2.2, but I am keeping Surfulater in my back pocket just in case.

I love Surfulater. It has both tag and folder structure. I wish tag tree had as much functionality as folder tree.

I finally made the switch to Evernote when the value of having a synchronized backup on the web became clear to me.

Another fact was when I made my mind up about a year ago that I was going to get back into the Mac world. Having everything in the cloud makes it easier changing computers and systems.

Neville, the developer for Surfulator is a standup guy, and very responsive to user comments and needs.

Daly

NewZRoom wrote:

I have to put in a word for Surfulater ... it's a bit more complex than evernote 2.2, but
it's powerful and the developer is very active. It's got the structure and tags. I'm
still using evernote 2.2, but I am keeping Surfulater in my back pocket just in case.

Evernote, it seems, is a series of comprises to get online sync. Though I have to say having online access is incredibly useful. But it seems like they're trying to make it harder and harder to like. I finally went back to Evernote 2. It's a struggle to get things synced ... but it has the features I want.

Surfulater is very good (it even has a scrollable tape if you click on a folder), but it doesn't seem as friendly for what I'm interested in. As someone once said: You can have anything you want, but you can't have everything.

A few years ago when Evernote decided to provide synced cloud service and accessibility on virtually every platform a clear decision was made to throw loyal EN Windows desktop users under the bus - at least temporarily, they said, for a short time. But the short time went on longer than expected, and functionality removed from ver 2 never came back completely.

The result has been some great rows on the official forums. The company has continually said for us to be patient. I think we may soon see more Windows capability come back, but I doubt the days of templates in EN will ever return.

The company's marketing wizards have also pulled a stunt which shows how little sensitivity or respect they have for the original, loyal EN users - they now date the age of EN from the time they put their head in the cloud and went multiplatform. I have called EN to task on this on three different occasions.

Having said all this, I now use EN as my main clipper - and I will be soon going to the Mac world so the mis-treatment of Windows users will be irrelevant to me.

Earlier this year I had some good exchanges with the EN CEO, which I found helpful.

But this business of lying about the product's age, and putting off the the legitimate concerns of Windows users is a big turn-off.

Re the issue with Windows users - my take is that marketing and mutli-platform development needs take priority given the company's strategic trajectory, and that this comes at the expense of fully developing EN as a sophisticated information manager. Hopefully the latter can become a priority again.

Daly

NewZRoom wrote:

Evernote, it seems, is a series of comprises to get online sync. Though I have to say
having online access is incredibly useful. But it seems like they're trying to make it
harder and harder to like. I finally went back to Evernote 2. It's a struggle to get
things synced ... but it has the features I want.

Surfulater is very good (it even has
a scrollable tape if you click on a folder), but it doesn't seem as friendly for what I'm
interested in. As someone once said: You can have anything you want, but you can't have
everything.

Daly de Gagne wrote:

they now date the age of EN from the time they put their head in the cloud and went multiplatform.

My first thought when I read that was:
"They might as well. It's a different application."

They should have changed the name while they were at it!

In all honesty, I don't feel bitter or anything at the folks at EN.
They are a for profit entity working to meet market need.

EN 3 doesn't do it for me, so I am looking elsewhere.


JasonE

Just an additional word on Surfulater; it's interesting how I missed the program as I use it extensively --the reason is that I started using it before it got its tagging capability and still do most of my organisation on items in it through the regular folder tree. For anyone who wants to see how the tagging feature works check out the original announcement here: http://blog.surfulater.com/2008/03/25/tagging-and-the-new-tags-tree/

I find Surfulater very powerful, reliable and intuitive, to the extent that I trusted it with most of my information on my MBA dissertation, and was not disappointed.

Among the reasons that I used Surfulater rather than Evernote --even though Evernote is my generic capture program- was the ability to link items to other items (via See Also...). This, and other non-exotic features are strangely missing from Evernote 3 (and also 2 as far as I remember); my favourite example is the non-ability to create copies of items, whether clones or independent ones (!) As I wrote at the Evernote forum "can you imagine an operating system where it is not possible to copy a file so as to work on the copy? Well, Evernote simply cannot make a copy of an existing note; why, I cannot fathom. I also cannot imagine how versioning can take precedence as a feature over it." (http://blog.evernote.com/2010/07/14/the-evernote-trunk/comment-page-2/#comments

I agree with everything Alexander has said about both Surfulater's virtues and Evernote's completely unbelievable shortcomings in some respects. I don't often copy Evernote items, but I have discovered a workaround, in case anyone needs to do this. If you export an item then re-import it, you will get a copy. (The creation date of the copy will be "now," for better or worse.) It's ridiculous that one should have to go through this process to make a simple copy, but at least there's a way, for anyone who might need to do it. I'm still using Evernote as my default capture tool, because of sync and because it captures so well. I use Surfulater, but data lock is at least a big a worry as with Evernote. You can get everything out in html or mht (in both apps), but what is left can hardly be called a database.

Cheers,
critStock

I suspect that from the moment Evernote's developers raised significant amounts in the money markets, their company became a different kind of beast with different kinds of priorities from the mostly small outfits that tend to cater to the CRIMP-suffering community.

I agree with the concern of basic features which are missing from EverNote - and they have been told plenty of times about it.

When people like me get to cantankerous and repetitive in making the point, the EN forums have a few self-righteous, flag-waving cheer leaders with such thoughtful names as Curds 'n Whey - oops no, wrong story - I meant to say Burgers 'n Fries, who pounce all over you. I got so fed up with that routine last spring that I wrote directly to the CEO complaining of how EN had thrown us Windows users under the bus, was missing basic features, and then how we were getting smeared on the forums by people who didn't see anything more for the program than was already being offered.

He was actually quite responsive, and assured me some good changes would come down the road soon. I think there are some improvements, but it is time for a program with such a good multi-platform base, and, on Chrome anyway, one of the best clip to the cloud extensions I have ever seen, to get serious about how information is handled.

The irony is that I do not think any program has ever been as well positioned as EverNote is now to make significant strides in increasing its ability to handle the functionality so important to CRIMPERs and others.

EN has move beyond the phase of integrating with all known platforms - it was a good strategic move in money terms and in terms of developing the technology. Now with its Trunk feature, EN is encouraging integration with various other programs, such as NOZBE, a cloud program I use and recommend for GTD. Some of the Trunk examples are pretty lame, but EN to its credit has opened it up in a way few others have - the NOZBE integration is neat, because it allows you to show specific EN notes related to projects and next actions.

The irony to much of this is that when I first corresponded with Eric Somer of ADM seven years ago, in the days before we spoke of the cloud, he had a vision for ADM being the basis for what he called a world wide outline - and he was thinking in terms of shared information and data in the cloud. I still maintain that the best outliner for Windows was ADM, and that had it continued no one would be able to touch it today. If I ever win the multi-million lottery in Canada, I will find Eric and invest in ADM.

I would love to see a cloud version of Surfulater because Neville, its developer, does understand information handling needs, and is much more open to suggestion and innovation in a timely manner than developers of such programs as UltraRecall and MyInfo.

Anyhow, I digress.

And with my Mac laptop being set up by the wonderful folks at Staples - the super-box store with the small shop feeling (my local Staples is phenomenal) - Omni-Focus and DevonThink will change my perspectives.

Cheers,

Daly

Hugh wrote:

I suspect that from the moment Evernote's developers raised significant amounts in
the money markets, their company became a different kind of beast with different
kinds of priorities from the mostly small outfits that tend to cater to the
CRIMP-suffering community.

Daly de Gagne wrote:

in Now with its Trunk feature, EN is encouraging
integration with various other programs, such as NOZBE, a cloud program I use and
recommend for GTD. Some of the Trunk examples are pretty lame, but EN to its credit has
opened it up in a way few others have - the NOZBE integration is neat, because it allows
you to show specific EN notes related to projects and next actions.

Daly, thanks for the heads up on NOZBE; I had singled it out some time ago as one of the potentially useful integrations of Evernote but hadn't really tried it.

Thanks for the thoughts on Evernote, everybody - I stopped using it a few months back, even though I like many of the features very much.

But I have discovered a few really interesting alternatives. First, the little-known author of AM-Notebook (itself a very professional outliner supporting rich-text notes and simple spreadsheet-type entries, as well as mindmaps, contacts and calendar entries) has also produced an elegant offline web-page reader called Local Website Archive. While the free version does have certain rather annoying limitations, it's still very powerful. And the Pro version is exceedingly powerful. Both versions are also very stable - I've moved over to this solution from Surfulater simply because the latter has a nasty tendency to crash, and Local Website Archive also has a very reliable full-text search engine. Best of all, it integrates with AM-Notebook...

No, I don't know Martin Aignes personally (you'll find all his software at aignes.com), but he's quick to respond to queries (I asked him about wordcounting, which AM-Notebook doesn't yet have, and he got back to me very speedily).

MadaboutDana wrote:

First, the little-known author of AM-Notebook (itself a
very professional outliner supporting rich-text notes and simple
spreadsheet-type entries, as well as mindmaps, contacts and calendar entries) has
also produced an elegant offline web-page reader called Local Website Archive.

Thanks for the heads-up on Local Website Archive; a significant advantage over other products is its Opera support. If I knew about it a couple of years ago I would have bought it straight away. Now, however, I have moved to Firefox for most of my work after much frustration --not by Opera itself, but by the significant number of websites which will identify non-popular browsers and refuse to even make the effort to serve them. (The "Please update your browser" sort of message)

I've moved over to this solution from Surfulater simply because the
latter has a nasty tendency to crash

As mentioned earlier on in this thread, I trusted Surfulater with my MBA data over almost three years and, as far as I remember, it never crashed. In sharp contrast, Brainstorm, my other main tool repeatedly collapsed under the weight of my data. I would suggest that the tendency that you noted has some particular cause, and as such is worth further investigating. In my experience, whenever a program that is considered reliable has crashed on my PC, this is related to system issues, and these will tend to manifest themselves elsewhere too.

That said, I know that a couple of past Surfulater updates have addressed some very specific stability bugs, which I myself had never come across. However, the most important thing for me is that even when Surfulater was closed irregularly --e.g. by a hard reset following PC freeze by some other program- I never lost data.