ADM Latest -- Anyone?
Started by Daly de Gagne
on 2/7/2007
Daly de Gagne
2/7/2007 7:08 pm
Is there anyone here who is still on the ADM Developers list, and who may be able to provide an update on what is happening with ADM?
The last I heard, going back before the end of the year is that a new data base engine was being used to improve performance, and that the program was being re-coded.
I'm curious to try the next build of ADM, and see how it stacks up.
The irony is that some of us, who feel hat ADM is the cat's meow, are scurrying around trying other programs, and lobbying for their developers to create features that make them more like ADM. These other programs are indeed good, and their developers are very responsive. But....
I have to admit that I am even trying out InfoSelect again, and finding that it has improved. Incidentally, this week I saw that Micro Logic is providing a free trail now for IS. That's a good move on ML's part.
Daly
The last I heard, going back before the end of the year is that a new data base engine was being used to improve performance, and that the program was being re-coded.
I'm curious to try the next build of ADM, and see how it stacks up.
The irony is that some of us, who feel hat ADM is the cat's meow, are scurrying around trying other programs, and lobbying for their developers to create features that make them more like ADM. These other programs are indeed good, and their developers are very responsive. But....
I have to admit that I am even trying out InfoSelect again, and finding that it has improved. Incidentally, this week I saw that Micro Logic is providing a free trail now for IS. That's a good move on ML's part.
Daly
Chris Murtland
2/7/2007 7:11 pm
I'm still on the ADM dev list - the last message was posted Jan. 8 and was the one where Eric stated the list would now be moderated.
Chris
Chris
Jan Rifkinson
2/8/2007 11:35 am
Chris Murtland wrote:
[snip] the last message was posted Jan. 8 and was the one where
Eric stated the list would now be moderated.[/snip]
[rant] I think he meant 'censored' as there doesn't seem to be much moderation. It's Eric's way or the highway, a sad commentary but typical of someone who has been co-opted by the fantasy of ultimate control . Shame on Google, Yahoo & a few others for helping the Chinese Gov't keep track of their citizens & preventing them from searching certain 'words'. Just cleaning house ahead of the 2008 Olympics. [/rant]
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Jan Rifkinson
2/8/2007 11:42 am
Daly de Gagne wrote:
Is there anyone here who is still on the ADM Developers list, and who may be able to
provide an update on what is happening with ADM? [snip]
The irony is that some of us, who feel hat ADM is the cat's meow,
are scurrying around trying other programs, and lobbying for their developers to
create features that make them more like ADM. [/snip]
Daly, The truly awful irony is that it was a lot of peoples' lobbying & some Russian programmers that made ADM what it is today; the same people who have lost interest or have been excluded from its future for one reason or another.
BTW, if you look @ the Milenix Road Map for v4 (due in Q2 '07) I think a few bells will start ringing.
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Daly de Gagne
2/8/2007 4:40 pm
Jan, can you explain the reference to Russian programmers? When Eric was still in Canada, was the programming being outsourced from here, or are you talking about Russian immigrants to Canada who did the programming.
You are right -- the input from a number of people helped to shape ADM. We had good discussions, sometimes spirited and rigourous, but it was all part of the creative process. I felt a loyalty to ADM at that point.
Re your rant from a previous post, I agree with your anger re Google and Yahoo caving in to the Chinese authorities, though they do not have a monopoly on human rights issues. I suspect a combination of work-related stresses and becoming acculturated has shifted Eric's perspective on open discussionn.
Yes, I have been trying MyInfo -- and I like it. I also like the roadmap for v4, and this morning added a list of my suggestions to the MI forum. Not surprisingly, like suggestions from yourself and others, some of them are similar to features in ADM.
At this stage I do not have much brand loyalty except to Zoot, which I believe is well worth waiting for in 32-bit form, to MDE InfoHhandler for housing professional and academic stuff, and to Surfulater which is, by far, the best web snippet clipper I have ever used.
Incidentally, some of us lobbied Kinook hard to consider hoisting in their next version and, to Kinook's credit, they have said they will look at a simple hoisting system for the next version.
I cannot believe I am saying this, but if InfoSelect had a reliable set of metadata columns, hoisting, and cloning, I would probably use it. The hot spots, sorting bin (undocumented but a very neat feature), and ability to make forms, make IS attractive.
I think it is fair to say that there is a growing wave of creativity among outline programs; as consumers and staunch CRIMPERS, I think it is to our advantage to lobby the developers of these programs for features we value, and may the best programmers win!
Daly
Jan Rifkinson wrote:
You are right -- the input from a number of people helped to shape ADM. We had good discussions, sometimes spirited and rigourous, but it was all part of the creative process. I felt a loyalty to ADM at that point.
Re your rant from a previous post, I agree with your anger re Google and Yahoo caving in to the Chinese authorities, though they do not have a monopoly on human rights issues. I suspect a combination of work-related stresses and becoming acculturated has shifted Eric's perspective on open discussionn.
Yes, I have been trying MyInfo -- and I like it. I also like the roadmap for v4, and this morning added a list of my suggestions to the MI forum. Not surprisingly, like suggestions from yourself and others, some of them are similar to features in ADM.
At this stage I do not have much brand loyalty except to Zoot, which I believe is well worth waiting for in 32-bit form, to MDE InfoHhandler for housing professional and academic stuff, and to Surfulater which is, by far, the best web snippet clipper I have ever used.
Incidentally, some of us lobbied Kinook hard to consider hoisting in their next version and, to Kinook's credit, they have said they will look at a simple hoisting system for the next version.
I cannot believe I am saying this, but if InfoSelect had a reliable set of metadata columns, hoisting, and cloning, I would probably use it. The hot spots, sorting bin (undocumented but a very neat feature), and ability to make forms, make IS attractive.
I think it is fair to say that there is a growing wave of creativity among outline programs; as consumers and staunch CRIMPERS, I think it is to our advantage to lobby the developers of these programs for features we value, and may the best programmers win!
Daly
Jan Rifkinson wrote:
Daly, The truly awful irony is that it was a lot of
peoples' lobbying & some Russian programmers that made ADM what it is today; the same
people who have lost interest or have been excluded from its future for one reason or
another.
BTW, if you look @ the Milenix Road Map for v4 (due in Q2 '07) I think a few
bells will start ringing.
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Jan Rifkinson
2/9/2007 2:22 am
Daly de Gagne wrote:
Jan, can you explain the reference to Russian programmers?
It was outsourced. I believe I started 'communicating' w Eric when he was in Korea. His Korean 'family' (not really family) financed part of the startup along w the Canadian. Then the programming had been outsourced to Russians in Russia for financial reasons. Also they appeared to be incredibly capable programmers -- fast as well as economic. As you may remember, they would turn problem betas around, add new functions & integrate it all in a few days. Yes, it created a few problems but after a certain point, ADM became quite stable. Still is.
I think Myinfo is interesting & Petko seems like a very thoughtful fellow & going in the right direction. The other program that has my interest -- although I 'm not sure of it's direction is Ultra Recall. At this point it's niftier looking but frankly I care less about that stuff than the functionality which has some big holes in it presently AFAIAC.
Nevertheless I still use ADM on a daily basis. GRRRRRRR.
Regards,
Jan
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Dominik Holenstein
2/9/2007 8:47 am
Jan,
Daly,
this is a very interesting read.
Regarding the russians programmers: What I know is that there was just one single russian programmer. He was fast and very responsive. But he used an outdated programming environment (ADM 4 is now developed on a much better IDE) and the programming code was a mess, not readable and understandable for other programmers. I know this because I one day ask Eric to look for additional developers because an appplication with the complexity of ADM can't be managed by just one person.
The huge delay for ADM 4 lays in the fact that the system seems to be developed completely new from scratch. Especially the database in ADM needs a clean up. Eric has hired chinese programmers. I don't know how many and I don't know whether they are constantly working on ADM or just part time. But just the fact that they are re-creating ADM on a hopefully better code base gives me some hope that one day we will have a stable ADM 4 version. If not this year then next year.
Dominik
Daly,
this is a very interesting read.
Regarding the russians programmers: What I know is that there was just one single russian programmer. He was fast and very responsive. But he used an outdated programming environment (ADM 4 is now developed on a much better IDE) and the programming code was a mess, not readable and understandable for other programmers. I know this because I one day ask Eric to look for additional developers because an appplication with the complexity of ADM can't be managed by just one person.
The huge delay for ADM 4 lays in the fact that the system seems to be developed completely new from scratch. Especially the database in ADM needs a clean up. Eric has hired chinese programmers. I don't know how many and I don't know whether they are constantly working on ADM or just part time. But just the fact that they are re-creating ADM on a hopefully better code base gives me some hope that one day we will have a stable ADM 4 version. If not this year then next year.
Dominik
Daly de Gagne
2/9/2007 5:38 pm
Dominik and Jan, thanks for the background.
My original sense, based on nothing factual, was that Eric was the front man (well, that is factual), and that Arne was working with a group of programmers in an office somewhere in Vancouver.
That a single Russian programmer could do what he did is amazing -- that he was using an out-of-date programming environment suggests a lack of proper oversight, or a calculated decision to get the concept developed, and then fix things later.
In reality, whether a lack of oversight, or a calculated decision, it has cost ADM dearly in terms of reputation and North American support. Not to mention the sense of personal relationship some of us felt with Eric.
Dominik, Eric did make references on the group about new code and a new data base engine.
However, after telling us so many times that all was good, and reacting rather badly when folks like Stephen Diamond, who can be somewhat abrasive but often has keen insights, pressed him, I am left now with an even more bitter taste in my mouth of the enterprise being misrepresented to the "trusted" beta testers. In many ways Stephen was right all along.
At an airport when there is a creeping delay -- the flight is first delayed 15 minutes, then 25 minutes later it is announced there will be another delay of 15 to 20 minutes, and so it goes all night, and seven hours later it's wheels up -- people get really angry because of lack of communication, of lack of being told that while we think it is 15 minutes, it might be longer.
That's how I feel.
Two or three times last year Eric was taken to task for lack of communication; clearly people were anxious and angry. Communication would improve for a while, then it was the same old pattern of days and weeks without hearing anything.
And if we heard anything it was about Skype or the Chinese market. Eric seemed unable to understand why some of us were frustrated hearing about such things when we were living with so many delays.
More recently when Eric started talking about new code, a new data base engine, I began to wonder how long he knew that was the direction without telling us.
As a former corporate communication consultant, I realize it is not good to have to make such a justified delay in bringing a product to market. However, Dominik, when I see what you have written, I can visualize clearly how that story could have been told in a way that would have increased confidence in ADM and in Eric.
One of the things that ticked Eric off in our private correspondence was that I suggested his decision to moderate a list that hardly anyone ever posted to anyway could be perceived as a defensive move, a circling of the wagons -- except there was no one to circle the wagons against. My point, of course, was that such perception would not be helpful to ADM.
He replied that my language was unacceptable and that I was now kicked off the group. Since his decision to moderate the list was made on the good authority of a tv show he had seen it could not possibly be defensive -- and my point of my concern being the perception of others (as opposed to his intent) was completely ignored.
I think the need to recode, etc. and the early development of ADM by a brilliant programmer using out-dated methodology could have been a wonderful business story -- especially given how ADM had brought together so many elements of information management in a way unique in the Windows world and more in keeping with the Mac.
Daly.
Dominik Holenstein wrote:
My original sense, based on nothing factual, was that Eric was the front man (well, that is factual), and that Arne was working with a group of programmers in an office somewhere in Vancouver.
That a single Russian programmer could do what he did is amazing -- that he was using an out-of-date programming environment suggests a lack of proper oversight, or a calculated decision to get the concept developed, and then fix things later.
In reality, whether a lack of oversight, or a calculated decision, it has cost ADM dearly in terms of reputation and North American support. Not to mention the sense of personal relationship some of us felt with Eric.
Dominik, Eric did make references on the group about new code and a new data base engine.
However, after telling us so many times that all was good, and reacting rather badly when folks like Stephen Diamond, who can be somewhat abrasive but often has keen insights, pressed him, I am left now with an even more bitter taste in my mouth of the enterprise being misrepresented to the "trusted" beta testers. In many ways Stephen was right all along.
At an airport when there is a creeping delay -- the flight is first delayed 15 minutes, then 25 minutes later it is announced there will be another delay of 15 to 20 minutes, and so it goes all night, and seven hours later it's wheels up -- people get really angry because of lack of communication, of lack of being told that while we think it is 15 minutes, it might be longer.
That's how I feel.
Two or three times last year Eric was taken to task for lack of communication; clearly people were anxious and angry. Communication would improve for a while, then it was the same old pattern of days and weeks without hearing anything.
And if we heard anything it was about Skype or the Chinese market. Eric seemed unable to understand why some of us were frustrated hearing about such things when we were living with so many delays.
More recently when Eric started talking about new code, a new data base engine, I began to wonder how long he knew that was the direction without telling us.
As a former corporate communication consultant, I realize it is not good to have to make such a justified delay in bringing a product to market. However, Dominik, when I see what you have written, I can visualize clearly how that story could have been told in a way that would have increased confidence in ADM and in Eric.
One of the things that ticked Eric off in our private correspondence was that I suggested his decision to moderate a list that hardly anyone ever posted to anyway could be perceived as a defensive move, a circling of the wagons -- except there was no one to circle the wagons against. My point, of course, was that such perception would not be helpful to ADM.
He replied that my language was unacceptable and that I was now kicked off the group. Since his decision to moderate the list was made on the good authority of a tv show he had seen it could not possibly be defensive -- and my point of my concern being the perception of others (as opposed to his intent) was completely ignored.
I think the need to recode, etc. and the early development of ADM by a brilliant programmer using out-dated methodology could have been a wonderful business story -- especially given how ADM had brought together so many elements of information management in a way unique in the Windows world and more in keeping with the Mac.
Daly.
Dominik Holenstein wrote:
Jan,
Daly,
this is a very interesting read.
Regarding the russians
programmers: What I know is that there was just one single russian programmer. He was
fast and very responsive. But he used an outdated programming environment (ADM 4 is
now developed on a much better IDE) and the programming code was a mess, not readable
and understandable for other programmers. I know this because I one day ask Eric to
look for additional developers because an appplication with the complexity of ADM
can't be managed by just one person.
The huge delay for ADM 4 lays in the fact that the
system seems to be developed completely new from scratch. Especially the database in
ADM needs a clean up. Eric has hired chinese programmers. I don't know how many and I
don't know whether they are constantly working on ADM or just part time. But just the
fact that they are re-creating ADM on a hopefully better code base gives me some hope
that one day we will have a stable ADM 4 version. If not this year then next
year.
Dominik
Jan Rifkinson
2/9/2007 11:13 pm
Now the real question for non-Chinese users is whether the db engine we are using is being updated, will be updated or has been updated and posted somewhere that we know nothing about. There is, in addition to all the other problems, absolutely no way that I know of to get tech support on the current product. I've written to all the addresses I know of to ask a technical support question & gotten exactly zero responses. Whatever else you might want to say about this situation, it is certainly irresponsible for a commercial venture.
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA
Daly de Gagne
2/10/2007 12:02 am
Jan, my sincere hope is that Eric and/or Arne are monitoring this list, and take at least some of what we are saying to heart.
If I was Arne, sitting there in Vancouver, minding my main business interests, and learned how my partner was treating people from his Chinese fortress of solitude I would be more than a little pissed.
My understanding is that the new version 4 would have the new db engine.
Daly
Jan Rifkinson wrote:
If I was Arne, sitting there in Vancouver, minding my main business interests, and learned how my partner was treating people from his Chinese fortress of solitude I would be more than a little pissed.
My understanding is that the new version 4 would have the new db engine.
Daly
Jan Rifkinson wrote:
Now the real question for non-Chinese users is whether the db engine we are using is
being updated, will be updated or has been updated and posted somewhere that we know
nothing about. There is, in addition to all the other problems, absolutely no way that
I know of to get tech support on the current product. I've written to all the addresses I
know of to ask a technical support question & gotten exactly zero responses. Whatever
else you might want to say about this situation, it is certainly irresponsible for a
commercial venture.
--
Jan Rifkinson
Ridgefield, CT USA