Dr. Andrus' comment below describes me for the last twenty-five years:

Posted by Dr Andus
Sep 8, 2015 at 10:03 PM
zoe wrote:
I’m finally starting to push beyond the initial Emacs learning curve
Respect! :) I never got past the first video by one of the gurus (his name escapes me), though I’m intrigued by the system.

The reason for this post is that about 60 days ago I finally broke down and decided to start with basic Emacs and see if I could build up a system similar to how I have used Ecco for twenty-five years, largely as a single-pane outliner. I am also experimenting with Logseq as well, but given that Logseq has its roots in org-mode I decided to take the plunge.

I now very much regret that I did not do this many years ago. I still plan to continue to use Ecco at least for a while, but I am shifting all of my new writing and organization methodology to org-mode. I was frustrated with markdown's limited ability to work with and format footnotes and to provide linking to jump between areas of a single document. It looks like org-mode can do that and much more.

It seems to me that aside from Logseq building on org-mode, there's been a missed opportunity for those of us focused on single-pane outlining to work together to customize Emacs in a way that is less intimidating to newcomers. So far I have found Doom and Spacemacs to be overkill, and I've started with vanilla emacs and built up a series of extensions and settings (including toobars) that is beginning to pretty well resemble what i am used to in Ecco. And of course now I see how org-mode is far more powerful than any program that halted development many years ago could ever be.

Apparently the geekiness of emacs invites those who take the time to learn and customize it to disdain the idea of setting it up to make it easy for new learners. Kind of like "by the way, I use Arch" (which I do as well). It also appears to me that "distributions" like Doom and Spacemacs seem oriented to programmers, rather than to outlining creative writing.

Rather than turning off all the toolbars to make it unapproachable, I'm finding it pretty straightforward to set up the major functions with a usable toolbar that's making it a lot easier to use the key combinations and commands over time. I am sure that there are many extensions and tips and tricks that I am only beginning to learn about, and that's another reason for this post. I would be very interested in seeing and hearing about the customizations of others who have decided to use org-mode in a similar way (making it easier to use without requiring memorization of innumerable keyboard shortcuts).

I know that the org-mode community is largely dedicated to outlining, but I haven't yet found a central place or forum other than the org-mode manual where I can focus my reading. I know that there are some very good youtube channels, but so far I haven't found a good "forum" where I can browse through topics in a straightforward way. Does anyone here who has gone down the route of customizing emacs/org-mode road for single pane creative outlining and word processing have any suggestions for resources to consult?

This is an encouraging post. I still only dabble with org-mode, but once I get into it, I love the way you can do such alternatively simple and complex things (move forward and back by sentence is one incredibly obvious tool) without taking your hands off the keyboard. It's a wonderful writing environment.

Still thinking about this myself and moving forward. Another comment to emphasize something:

I fully understand why "power users" think it is a great idea to turn off all menus and toolbars after they become proficient in how a program works. I see that as much the same thing as those who go for "minimalism" in interfaces and "distraction-free" environments. I get it and I share some of the enthusiasm for that - sometimes.

But that kind of approach is a killer for new-user onboarding. Going to youtube and looking for basics videos and finding only what amounts to blank terminal screens is bound to be off-putting for large numbers of very intelligent people who would otherwise get a lot out of org-mode.

Even when I get proficient I like the "comfort" of frequently-used options readily available on a toolbar, reminding me of core functions, so I can focus my mind on the content of what I am doing and not worry needlessly about remembering every possible keystroke. For better or worse many people like to use mice, and it seems to me that keeping core functions available and only a mouseclick away is a good idea. I suppose I am firmly still in "Ecco-mode" of having a toolbar available for repeated functions, but also having the ability to turn it off when not needed.

So at this moment I'm still of the opinion that the learning curve of Org-mode is far too needlessly high. Setting it up with sane defaults for people who are interested in outlining seems to me to be a very doable task, and then they can explore all the other features and options later - if and when they so desire.

At this point I've only really come across Doom and Spacemacs as "distros" of emacs, and both of those seem to be set by default with no toolbars whatsoever. That seems to me to be a great shape - I hope I will come across someone who has already thought through sane toolbar defaults and has a "distro" somewhere that I am yet to find.

cicerosc wrote:

That seems to me to be a great shape - I hope I
will come across someone who has already thought through sane toolbar
defaults and has a "distro" somewhere that I am yet to find.

A great SHAME ;-)

I wonder if something like this https://github.com/jglev/emacs-org-mode-for-the-laity would be useful for people looking for civilized defaults.

I took a few days off, and as a good nerd, I decided to learn something new. Org mode had been on my radar for a few years, but I had never tried using it because I knew I needed to understand Emacs a bit first.

Well, inspired by this post, I decided it was time to try again. I completed the entire tutorial that comes with Emacs, watched videos from *System Crafters* and a few others, and started playing around with Org mode.

I’m completely in love. The system is very mature, and every feature I could imagine is already implemented. I never really understood what Emacs is or what Org mode does until I started using it, and I can say that Org mode is at its core **an excellent outliner**.

This beginning phase is a bit tricky, and I constantly find myself referring to the Emacs and Org mode manuals, which, by the way, are excellent—very complete and comprehensive.

Anyway, I installed two apps that handle Org mode files on my phone, each better for different purposes: [Orgzly](https://www.orgzly.com/ and [Orgro](https://orgro.org/ I sync my files to a folder on Nextcloud... and went all in. Let’s see how long I can stay away from Obsidian.

Thanks for your post Rafael. I am now about 90 days into my org-mode exploration, and I am more enthusiastic than ever.

Like you, I have learned a lot from the system-crafters videos.

It's unfortunate for us as outliners, rather than coders, that most videos are slanted toward the features that are most helpful for coding. Few videos are oriented to coding.

THANK YOU for the reference to the org-mode-for-the-laity setup file. I wish I had had that when I started! Now I am going through it to find things that I have missed. That suggestion alone makes me glad that I posted this thread.

Perhaps at some point someone will get interested in posting systemcrafters-like videos and/or a page from this outlining-for-writers perspective.