Brandon Sanderson advocates outlining each plot thread separately, then moving the entries from each thread outline into a master outline. Or, at least that what the Yarn Ray YouTube channel suggests - https://youtu.be/aBhT9GVh0vQ

This morning I'm experimenting with that in Curio.

You can copy a single entry in an outline (a list) as a synced instance to another list. Or, as a node in a mind map, a standalone note, an entry in a kanban stack, or probably into other contexts.

The advantage is that the separate plot thread outlines remain unchanged as you populate the master outline with synced instances of plot thread entries. Anything with impact in more than one plot thread can be copied as a synced entry across the thread outlines.

Also, when you edit any instance of those synced entries, all instances reflect the edit including the attached note field.

This seems to have possibilities.

Put ten writers in a room and don't be surprised if you get 10 different recommendations. Probably more, since individual processes can change over time.

I don't think Sanderson's recommendation could ever work for my fiction.

I don't outline each plot thread separately because everything starts too tentatively. Plot threads are at least partly dependent on other plot elements, or other character actions in a timeline - actions which might change as I think about story or as previously unforeseen circumstances or dialogue arise. And when that happens it changes other plot threads.

If I were to use Sanderson's system as described I worry I'd be less willing to make changes, less willing to speculate and play, because I'd internally balk at having to change all the other relevant plot threads (unless I duplicated everything and used revision drafts of outlines) - and knowing that it might be a wrong decision and need to be reversed. I don't mind rewriting in a word processor (which does versioning), but my outlines are speculative conglomerations broken don by Act, which makes it easier to conjecture and facilitate changes which end up on an index card storyboard.

(I've tried to storyboard electronically but it does not work for me. There is just *something* about being able to stare a couple of feet away at index cards on a wall color-coded with Post-It Notes by character, separated down by Act, and see everything as a whole. Although digital index cards and storyboards proliferate they hold too little text l and I can't take in story the same way.)

I do write out separate tentative plot threads, but in OmniOutliner with tons of branching speculative subnodes (and tons of notes and draft text) containing ideas to be massaged later in a text editor. I freewrite within outline form. My outlines typically contain many dozens of pages of draft story ideas, dialogue and draft text because it's so easy to do in the app. Mind map apps aren't good writing/editing environments, and when I'm brainstorming and outlining I don't like to switch between multiple apps.

I have no idea who that YouTube creator is, or how accurate his enthusiastic explication of Sanderson's outlining method is, but Sanderson does write about his method on his site and it seems more straightforward than the video.

https://faq.brandonsanderson.com/knowledge-base/can-you-go-into-depth-about-outlining/

I like Sanderson's comments in that link you posted about multi-drafters and single-drafters.

Harvard outline generally take the life out of stories, or so they do for me. However, a basically flat outline (or a wall of index cards) seems like a good idea if it serves to speed-write the story.

Oh, I never speed write anything!

Amontillado wrote:

Brandon Sanderson advocates outlining each plot thread separately, then
moving the entries from each thread outline into a master outline.

I assumed every multi-thread writer who uses outlines did this. Easier to make it internally consistent. Includes the pre-story of characters, doesn't include intermingled threads (which obviously exist as themselves).

I assume that some programs are more helpful than others.

Outliners supporting tags, like Outline Edit and OmniOutliner, help with threaded outlines but they don't allow editing while a thread filter is active. I stopped using OmniOutliner a while back when it appeared OmniGroup was letting it languish. I could be misremembering details.

The idea of one outline per thread, and I doubt I've ever written anything with more than three threads, seems to be useful. I've also realized I don't need to complete one thread outline before starting the other and I don't need to finish the thread outlines before starting to work on the master outline.

It seemed like a great revelation when I first heard of the idea of separate outlines for threads. After a day or two of messing with it, it's more like just another way to prod a pile of ideas into a story.

Curio's synced text figures as they apply to outline entries has renewed my interest in Curio as an outliner.

OmniOutliner uses tags?

Amontillado wrote:

Outliners supporting tags, like Outline Edit and OmniOutliner, help with
threaded outlines but they don't allow editing while a thread filter is
active. I stopped using OmniOutliner a while back when it appeared
OmniGroup was letting it languish. I could be misremembering details.

The idea of one outline per thread, and I doubt I've ever written
anything with more than three threads, seems to be useful. I've also
realized I don't need to complete one thread outline before starting the
other and I don't need to finish the thread outlines before starting to
work on the master outline.

It seemed like a great revelation when I first heard of the idea of
separate outlines for threads. After a day or two of messing with it,
it's more like just another way to prod a pile of ideas into a story.

Curio's synced text figures as they apply to outline entries has renewed
my interest in Curio as an outliner.

You can add columns for tags, task due dates, completion status, and more.

https://cms-assets.tutsplus.com/cdn-cgi/image/width=1200/uploads/users/26/posts/19995/image/todo-list-in-OO.png

Keywords can be used "like tags"

steve-rogers wrote:

OmniOutliner uses tags?

Amontillado wrote:
Outliners supporting tags, like Outline Edit and OmniOutliner, help with
>threaded outlines but they don't allow editing while a thread filter is
>active. I stopped using OmniOutliner a while back when it appeared
>OmniGroup was letting it languish. I could be misremembering details.
>
>The idea of one outline per thread, and I doubt I've ever written
>anything with more than three threads, seems to be useful. I've also
>realized I don't need to complete one thread outline before starting
the
>other and I don't need to finish the thread outlines before starting to
>work on the master outline.
>
>It seemed like a great revelation when I first heard of the idea of
>separate outlines for threads. After a day or two of messing with it,
>it's more like just another way to prod a pile of ideas into a story.
>
>Curio's synced text figures as they apply to outline entries has
renewed
>my interest in Curio as an outliner.

That's why Scapple is the way it is – no complex layering, just a series of easily adjusted relationships ;-)

On the Bike front: of course you can create a very complex series of Bike outlines if you want, using Bike's excellent linking features. The advantage of Bike lies in the focusing function.

On the other hand, filtering (from a navigation sidebar) is also very useful. Which is why some people use TaskPaper to draft complex documents.

Here's discussion of emulating tags in OmniOutliner - https://discourse.omnigroup.com/t/adding-and-organizing-with-tags/48326

Although not a tags feature, I think you can do most of what you can do with tags in some apps such as OutlineEdit.

Paul Korm wrote:

Keywords can be used "like tags"

I use Mindomo; mindmap or outline view. I can't use many mindmappers, inc Scrapple, because they don't have an adequate dark mode.

Mindomo has hoisting, #tags (inc tag filters) and great Word export (inc comments). And the ability to have many separate threads on one map. But not the mirroring/sync mentioned in the OP.

Super interesting topic. I am not a writer, this helps me understand those use cases better. Just let me know if there is something that I could add to improve support for Sanderson style outlining in OutlineEdit.

Categories in OutlineEdit are very useful. A nice step up would be allowing multiple categories per entry so the categories would be more like tags.

It would also be nice to be able to add entries to the outline while it was filtered. The new entries should go directly below the visible line and have the same categories as referenced in the current filter. I haven't seen an outliner that would allow that.

If you allowed deleting within a filtered view, you might want to show a warning if you were about to delete hidden children of the line.


Robin wrote:

Super interesting topic. I am not a writer, this helps me understand
those use cases better. Just let me know if there is something that I
could add to improve support for Sanderson style outlining in
OutlineEdit.