I started outlining with Grandview and loved it. When Symantec quit updating that product I switched to ECCO for its outlining function. I don't use ECCO for its other PIM features. I am frustrated by ECCO's limitations, i.e., no spell checker; you can't double space; no more upgrades, etc. Are there any good outliners out there for IBM compatible PC's? What outliner would you recommend?

That's a difficult one. There are some out there, but they seem to be an outliner attached to something else, and the something else is the raison d'etre for the program. We are all waiting anxiously for MaxThink for Windows, but it is several months past its scheduled release date.

I guess my answer is, there are none that come close to MaxThink or Grandview for DOS. Brown Bag Software has PC Outline for Windows, but I didn't have time to try out the trial copy before it expired on me. For now, wait for MaxThink and be patient.

I've looked at them all. I would affirm that there are none, absolutely none, unfortunately and dastardly so, that can by any -- not even the most creative and rationalized stretch -- be justly compared with or even worthy of comparison with Grandview -- which I unequivocaly and without reservation say was and continues at present to be the best of the genre. Concerning Brown Bag Software's PC Outline for Windows, I just today downloaded and tried it, having just found out about it's Windows incarnation. In two words, FORGET IT! On second thought, I can't relax with just those two words. I am astounded that the writers of PC Outline (and all of the other alleged outliner/thought processors) would offer such feeble fodder for evaluation, let alone serious use. They all have Grandview's interface and functionality to use as a guide. What they offer is not even close! Indeed, it's frustrating and maddening that this is so. I wonder how they come up with this crap! Concerning MaxThink for Windows, from the prior post it appears that a Windows version is coming. Let's wait and see. I haven't followed the progress of MaxThink for quite a while, however, I recall from the website that the author's polemics seem to be credible and indicate that the author has the conceptual knowledge and understanding of outlining and dedication to potentially come out with a worthy and credible product. Meanwhile, I'm continuing to use Grandview in dazzling and productive ways, even with Windows ME. I'll always use Grandview unless something OF IT'S EQUAL comes out. If this does not happen and the time comes when Grandview will not run on the then platforms, I'll write my own version or attempt to pool resources to hire the job out.

Jeffrey -- -- I think you're on the right track with respect to contacting John Friend, yet what do you have in mind?

I am an optimist, resolute and determined that Life, Liberty, and the use of Grandview shall not perish from the face of the earth! The question is, do you think that there are sufficient numbers of Grandview patriots out there who would be willing to link up and pool resources to finance or otherwise work to bring about the renewed development of Grandview, or at least something that provides what it does in as elegant a manner? Perhaps such a venture can be incorporated and financed with equity interest. After all, Grandview is only a humanly written program. It didn't materialize from the heavens as one may conclude upon using it. Yes, where is the genius John Friend!? Let's try to find him and make him aware of our plea! Please keep me in the loop with what you find in your net search. Also, be advised that Friend wasn't alone in the writing of Grandview. There was a team. I even recall finding, a couple of years ago, a resume posted on-line from a person who credited himself with being on the Grandview development team. I saved the link, however, it is no longer valid. Unfortunately, I don't recall the individual's name.