I began using More in 95 while working for TCI, developing the @Home Network before they spun it off into its own entity. We were an all-Mac design studio with 10 media designers and one info architect (me). Everyone loved it because you could toggle from outline mode to flow-chart mode, and edit from either. Though it took a lot of work to format the charts into efficient documents that didn't require tile-printing onto 25 sheets of paper, it was very powerful in helping to develop a site architecture.

By 97, when I architected the original prototypes for etoys.com, I was stuck in a PC-dominant work environment -- and file-sharing was the rule of the land. So I was forced to stop using More -- because the Biz development folks and coders were all on PC's... Sad... I searched in vein for a PC equivalent to MORE -- for web flowcharts and information architecture. All I ever heard people say was "Visio"... I didn't have Visio on Mac, so I used Quark Xpress since I could control the layout... No intelligence for flowcharting, but great for visual control.

In 98 thru March 99 I was Director of User Interface Design for Bankof America.com -- my largest and most complex project ever. All PC's (Macs were special order, requiring approval from 3 levels up, and it literally took 5 months to get one -- too late). I asked what people used -- the said Visio. So I took a course in it to get up to speed fast. What a joke! 20 minutes into the presentation I asked the instructor: "Let me understand this: is this a glorified set of graphical templates and shapes with which to draw a flowchart -- or is there anykind of outline intelligence built into this app?" Answer: "essentially a drawing program with library of shapes and some limited linkage capability". I couldn't believe what a waste of time -- in that classroom, for the developers of that app, and any poor sap who was told Visio is a great flowchart program. A colleague at BankAmerica who was steeped in programming (I am not a programmer), insisted on using WORD's outline features. I asked him to show me them -- and it was so cumbersome and non-intuitive that I abandoned that and went back to using a whiteboard...

When I asked top-flight web design firms in San Francisco what they used for web flowcharting, some mentioned Visio -- while most used no form of intelligent flowcharting at all.

Studio Archetype (UPS.com, Realtor.com, ton of high-end sites):
uses Illustrator or Quark

USWeb/CKS: Illustrator; with some "living docs" created in Filemaker Pro

MetaDesign: Illustrator

and so on... NO ONE had heard of More -- and no one had a smart tool for working out the information architecture -- but rather used a graphic design tool to work through the evolution of a flowchart.

I stumbled upon this website via Jacob Neilson's "alertbox" columns on useit.com ... It's thrilling to see MORE being validated -- people thought I was crazy. Thanks to Brad and others for ressurecting this tool. I am only slightly disappointed that the version I already had (3.1) was the last released.

If anyone here uses More for Web information architecture, and has developed a great template (in flowchart mode) which compensates for some of the default layout problems, please email me with file-attach to:
mailto:richard@medialaunch.com
Thank you very much!

Fascinating stuff! If I were doing this now, I'd want to be using Inspiration (demo and tutorial from http://www.inspiration.com of which there's been surprisingly little mention in the discussion so far. For those who don't know it, Inspiration is like More without the bullet view but with the tree view on banned steroids: multiple links, allowing a kind of visual hyperoutline overlying the linear hierarchy, and complete freeform control over all graphical elements (if you want it; or More-like instant graphification if you don't).

My one regret is that version 5 got rid of the customisable colour palette - and More users will also miss blending; cloning and gathering; hoisting; and the ability to stick graphics anywhere in an outline, rather than just at the end of a Comment. On the other hand, it does allow you to change your Home headline, something that you probably don't miss in More unless you've got used to it. There's a review by (who else) Matt Neuburg at http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-410.html#lnk3 (In defence of version 4 - the best, I think - it should be said that many of Matt's favourite "new" features were ones he missed in his review of the previous version, http://www.tidbits.com/tb-issues/TidBITS-180.html#lnk4 because he was only comparing outline modules.)

I'd be interested to hear what others feel about Inspiration. For me, it's the one current outliner that genuinely feels like a worthy successor to More, and an evolutionary step along from it. Be warned that, like all great outliners, it will completely rewire your head as you discover the new ways of thinking and working its graphical approach opens up. Did I mention that it imports and exports More documents, including graphics, faster than it does plain text? that it's cross-platform (hurrah!), with a common file format for MacOS & Windows? or that it exports outlines with graphics to HTML, as single or multiple pages with links and GIFs automatically generated?

I've been playing in the last few days with originating web pages in More, which I then export to HTML via Inspiration. I've even managed to convert an old Three by Five corkboard to HTML via an arcane maze of pathways (through RTF, Word 5.1, Inspiration, More, back to Inspiration, and thence to HTML!). Something similar may be possible through PowerPoint, which I don't have - anyone tried? Does it still import More documents?

I'm in total agreement about Visio for flowcharting. It is a nice non-artist's draw program which has its uses, but flowcharting shouldn't be one of them. Back in the early nineties I evaluated half a dozen flowcharting programs. To my amazement, the only one that had intelligence was AllClear. The DOS version of that time would be primitive by today's standards. I haven't used it in years, but I think it is still out there and has been updated.

I never could understand why people would settle for a glorified draw program.

PS MS Word's outlining has got to be the one area that darn program hasn't changed since version 1.0. Wake up, MicroSoft!!

Another solid cross-platform choice for Web flowcharting and outlining is Inspiration(http://www.inspiration.com It's what my Web team uses to do our flowcharting, and it is an outliner among other things. I've been using it since April when it was recommended at a Web conference I attended in Atlanta(Web Design 99).

It also does an excellent job of exporting its charts to gif for easy posting and viewing by either clients or co-workers. To date, I am using it on both Windows 98 and Mac OS 8.6.

I've been using MORE (and before that ThinkTank) daily since they came out. I've been developing/designing a big corporate intranet website for an HMO for some years.

If I were going to flowchart a site, I'd start with MORE. And evidently flowcharting is used with success. But...

Here's why, at my work, I have discouraged the use of flowcharting as a way to model or organize the website. I discovered that the practice encourages some people (e.g., managers!) to think about the site in ways which do not reflect the way visitors actually participate in a website. The practical effect has been -- at my organization, anyway -- has been to foster 'flowchart-driven' site design, which may not be the best way to achieve its goals, let alone anticipate a visitor's desiderata. It's too 'top-down'; it doesn't encourage putting oneself in the visitor's shoes. But it all looks so reasonable on paper!